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 Post subject: Nortik Navigator 2011
PostPosted: Sun Jan 09, 2011 2:15 am 
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An interesting new model. Looks like a ..... kayak:
http://www.out-trade.de/de/index.php?ca ... ct=A000849


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 09, 2011 3:20 pm 
I wish there was more info than article written by the Out-Trade store. Not clear who is the manufacturer - they only say that the final design was tuned-up
Quote:
"together with our strategic partner Triton (St. Petersburg) - the world's largest manufacturer of folding kayaks..."
.
Well... I know that Triton is the largest manufacturer of folding kayaks in Russia (because it is basically the only one there - just a couple of other very small businesses). But - "in the world"?... I wonder where all those huge numbers of Triton folders are going to, every year :) . Not to North America, not to Australia, not to UK. In West Europe, AFAIK, there are more Kleppers and Pouches than any other brand (with Folbot, FC and lately - Wayland and Triton altogether sharing places #3 and below).

My apologies for pessimistic tone lately - nasty Baja winter is to blame, probably.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 09, 2011 4:19 pm 
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The only other information I was able to find is this:
http://www.kanumagazin.de/szene/news/de ... eiten-vor/

On the positive side, on paper at least, the boat seems to fill the void in terms of size (505*58, 150 kg capacity) between wisper/xp and K1 expedition: for larger paddlers, this size of boat was missing. Other boats with similar size have less of a shape of a sea kayak and are more like a spread-out tent....
Why opt for a full expedition boat if you are bit outsized for the wisper?

Ladoga had some good revues in the German press in terms of price/use value ratio. But probably more for the numerator.... However, reportedly, the quality improved significantly with later vintages...


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 09, 2011 7:46 pm 
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On the german forum people already discussed the boat in mid-December

http://www.faltboot.de/forum/read.php?1,176366


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 09, 2011 7:56 pm 
It is very, very different from K1. I would rather say it is similar to Khatsalano (and remotely similar to smaller Wisper), only with wooden frame. K1 is a much wider hull @26.5" (67 cm), with more primary stability and easier loading of gear than Khatsalano, and more sluggish which is to be expected with high-volume expedition boats.

Price-wise... I don't know. Probably price/quality ratio of Triton boats (if this Nortik is by Triton) is better than of FC, especially for a European customer, which I am not. At some point lower quality makes the boat too uncomfortable to enjoy (and unsafe too), and then price no longer matters.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 09, 2011 10:50 pm 
Correction: it is not similar in size to Khatsalano , but rather in the middle between Khats and Wisper. So payload slightly higher than Wisper makes sense.

Priced at $3500. Skirt, seasock and rudder are optional - probably add another $300, which makes it pretty close to Wisper in price, on this continent anyway. A bit heavy, though. Wooden boats usually are.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 12:35 pm 
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Alm wrote:
Priced at $3500. Skirt, seasock and rudder are optional - probably add another $300, which makes it pretty close to Wisper in price, on this continent anyway. A bit heavy, though. Wooden boats usually are.


Where did you get the US price? My impression has been so far that US dollar prices are translated in the European markets approximately by replacing the us dollar by euro behind the same amount. At least if, you look at FC prices in Germany (in the UK "translation" is even worse....). I do not know why would it different in the other direction: Europe to US? 2700 euros to 2700 usd for the Navigator?

What I wanted to say about the Navigator in term of model comaprison is simply this: this is the model closest to a hardshell seakayak suitable for a bit larger paddlers in terms of size and shape: neather to wide like a K1 or other traditional folding boats, not too narrow like a greenland type Khats or low volume hardshells.... Wisper with some additon to the length (and volume) would be similar. Maybe I am wrong....


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 11:03 pm 
vehicular wrote:
Where did you get the US price?

There is no US price. I meant it is priced at $US 3500 in Europe (Euro 2700= $US 3500). It hasn't arrived to Europe yet, though.

Quote:
...this is the model closest to a hardshell seakayak suitable for a bit larger paddlers in terms of size and shape: neather to wide like a K1 or other traditional folding boats, not too narrow like a greenland type Khats or low volume hardshells.... Wisper with some additon to the length (and volume) would be similar

Yes, Wisper with some addition to the length - this describes Nortik correctly. Similar to Khats too - its width is in the middle between regular Khats and Khats S. With "A bit larger paddlers" it is not that simple - when you're taller, even if you are very thin, your center mass becomes higher and you need a wider boat, - not just a longer boat.

At this point this all is just... you know... coffeehouse talks. Too many questions that nobody has answers yet (because nobody paddled it yet). For example, how close it is to Wisper/Khats or rigid kayaks - will also depend on how rigid it is. Some frames have a lot of flex. How good it is for tall guys - will depend on how ribs are placed (and shaped), and how much room is under deck to move your feet. Not to mention quality and design problems. I already don't like some things in the hatch design on the photo, but wouldn't comment any further - it's too early.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 1:44 pm 
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Only one thing: 2700 euros price includes appr. 20 % VAT, which - according to my best knowledge - is not applicable in the US (or North-America, including Canada?). Some extra transport cost could be expected, but that would remain well below the difference caused by VAT.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 4:57 pm 
vehicular wrote:
Only one thing: 2700 euros price includes appr. 20 % VAT, which - according to my best knowledge - is not applicable in the US (or North-America, including Canada?). Some extra transport cost could be expected, but that would remain well below the difference caused by VAT.


Importing to Canada will not be subject to European VAT, but will have import duty (I think 10%) plus sales tax at 5%-15% on top of extra shipping and customs brokerage. So depending on the province could actually be more than the 20% VAT.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 7:08 pm 
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Thats a good point. However, it is possible that the european price also includes some import duty.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:21 pm 
henry wrote:
Importing to Canada will not be subject to European VAT, but will have import duty (I think 10%) plus sales tax at 5%-15% on top of extra shipping and customs brokerage. So depending on the province could actually be more than the 20% VAT.

You may be sure of that. Import tax applies to anything shipped to Canada from outside NAFTA zone. Canadian sales tax is on top of this import tax. Plus, few hundred bucks shipping. Plus, warranty/service issues - this hasn't been a strong side of Triton so far, not to mention shipping again. They would have to price it $1000 less, to get Canadians interested.

There might be a few curious collectors though - some people are collecting folders. But only if the boat is well made. When it is not - like happened to some brands and models in the past - collectors get rid of it quickly and avoid talking about that mistake :) ...


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 8:31 am 
Hello over there,
we went over this thread and just got the feeling that we have to place some more informations regarding the nortik navigator. We, that means Out-Trade / Germany, are working in the folding kayak business for many years now and during these years we had a lot of customers asking us for a lightweight and durable Folding kayak with the shape of a sea kayak which is built with a wooden frame and fits into one backpack. Of course there are really nice foldable sea kayaks in the market with aluminium frame and we love to paddle (and sell) them all - but the friends of wooden framed boats mostly bought a hard shelled kayak.
So we decided some years ago to found the brand "nortik" with the destination to develop boats for the "Newbies" and "Campers" (boats like the nortik scubi, which is a hybrid between an inflatable and a foldable) as well as wooden framed boats in the touring and expedition class like the navigator. The complete development of the boats in 3D-CAD and prototyping is made in Germany in our company. Because of several reasons we produce the boats with Triton. The most important reason is the very long experience and know-how in producing folding kayaks and that we have very good experience with our Triton advanced line. And of course: they are located much closer to us than oversea-production like China or somewhere else. Well: because nortik is a German brand we are responsible for all kinds of design, construction, craftsmanship, support, guarantee and quality insurance.
Of course you will see this boat in the US market too. We hope that this information will help you understanding the idea of nortik and which people / companies are standing behind this brand. Of course we will try to answer on every question you have and I hope you all are understanding my terrible English!
Best wishes over the great lake!
Tobias / Steffen
(Owners of Out-Trade / Germany)


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 5:14 pm 
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Hello Tobias and Steffen,

Thank you very much for the background information and motivation behind the development of the navigator. I am very much interested in all the details available about the boat including availabilty.

Looking forward the unfolding story of the navigator

Vehicular


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 2:32 am 
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Hi All, I was previously a member of this forum , but cant asses my old profile, I am a Manufacturer , I produce sail rigs foe sea kayaks.

I have resently paddled the Navigator , its a fine kayak, I was paddling in a 2m sea with a 1m runing swell, with rebound of sea clifs , I have a fetherctaft kahuna which I realy like , the bild quolity is just as good, the wooden frame is no problem , its still lite to cary , the coming is beter than the fethercraft , and it was just as cumfortabel to sit in . compeard to the fethercraft the ruder and controles is light years ahead, the peddles can actualy be yoused to drive of when paddling , the foot position in relation to the seat position is ergonomicly beter as well.
the side sponsons have the air tube linked together , Im undesided if this is a good or bad thing , on one hand ther always balenced with the same preshure , on the other hand punture one tube and thay both go down as yet im undisided , being still relatively new to traveling with folders , how often do you manage to hole an air bag ?
on ariving back from our paddle , it was high tide with a medium to large surf, in a hard shell boat or my F1 SOF kayak I woldent give it asecond thort , but folders are new to me in surf, the Navigator traked well on the way in , I was consernd with the fine bow and wether it wold perl on me , I think the sponsons help to stop this , it as an esy ride in .
the exceliration is good to , and I had no problem keeping up with longer hard shell kayaks i our pod . all in all for a ferst paddle I give it a good thumbs up !

Im so impresed im considering to bring sume into Australia thave just released an aluminium framed kayak the Argo, Sandy Robson who is paddling in the paddle strokes of Oska Spec is curently paddling one on this leg of her trip.
I think the Argo will apeal to more paddlers in Australia.


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