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 Post subject: New Ladoga II advanced
PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 12:16 pm 
In Europe they start now selling the new Ladoga II advanced. Is there anybody who already could test it.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 12:29 pm 
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Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Hi,

I live in Denmark, and I just received my Ladoga II Advanced. I also got their upwind sail and outriggers. I have made the first assembly - pain in the @*%¤#¤ - requires superhuman force, manual is very bad, but the construction is otherwise simple, very robust and nice looks. I can't wait to get out and try it - I'll be back then with my experiences.

Rasmus Møller


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 9:46 pm 
rasmusmoller wrote:
Hi,

I live in Denmark, and I just received my Ladoga II Advanced. I also got their upwind sail and outriggers. I have made the first assembly - pain in the @*%¤#¤ - requires superhuman force, manual is very bad, but the construction is otherwise simple, very robust and nice looks. I can't wait to get out and try it - I'll be back then with my experiences.

Rasmus Møller


Assembling of my L-1 was a lot of pain, but dissembling was almost the same pain. Two things I liked in L-1 - Russian price (even after shipping expenses from Moscow), and easy loading through long open cockpit. Everything else... Rudder, seat, both big and small cockpit skirts - almost everything was poorly designed even if materials were mostly good. L-2 is the same, only longer and wider. I'd better make no more comments :-) ... May be, if they have really improved it significantly, it can be useful in some certain range of conditions and when infrequently assembled.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 9:51 am 
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The weeks of rain finally paused long enough for me to try it out yesterday in a protected bay in the shallow sea between Copenhagen and Sweden. This second building time was about an hour, but I wasted more than 20 min putting the suspended canvas seats at the wrong places; for my first building session at home, I had not put the seats. Anyway, it was much easier than the first time, and I am confident that I shall soon be able to do it in about 30 min, even alone.

It was rather easy to handle, once it was in the water; there was a wind of 5-10 m/s but the bay had no waves. I had a 50 kg front person and 90 kg myself behind. There was a slight tendency to go into the wind. When I was alone behind, there was naturally a stronger tendency to go off the wind, but even then it was controllable (without waves). Boat is very stable and easy to get going. Smaller persons might want to sit higher - there is ample stability in the boat for it.

I put on the rudder, which looks too small (ca 40cm x10cm) and only the bottom third of it is actually in the water while steering. This was, however, more than enough to correct wind steering. I finished by going a little further out, where the wind made waves of about 1m amplitude. We worked a little bit harder, but there was no problem advancing and the boat seemed steady as a rock for the half hour we were out - and it was great fun to roam around the "wavescape".

Disassembly took less than 10 min ; the main annoyance is to find place in my car for the wet skin, which I did not want to put with the almost dry tubes. Also removing the bow tube structure from the skin is easy - for two persons each pulling one end. I'll try to see if using a big plastic bag between bow structure and the skin makes it easier to separate.

I am really looking forward to try the outriggers and the 3.5m2 sail, that I took as an option. However I expect the rudder to be too small to work efficiently with that size of sail, and I am thinking of enlarging it.

Note: My main boat experience is with my retiring 420 dinghy. I have only about 50 hours experience with kayak paddling, and this is the first one that I own. I needed a foldable for storage/transport reasons; my first choice would have been a Folbot GII, but it was exactly twice as expensive, and second hand GIIs have not surfaced anywhere near me. My SO voted for the least financial risk.

So I can't really compare to other foldables, and these are just a beginner's experiences, in a protected, low salinity (1%) sea that I have sailed thin since my childhood.

The alu tubes were kind of dirty and non-anodized when I got them, so I washed them with a degreasing agent, rinsed and dried them. Then I applied Turtle Wax, polished and applied Car Top Sealing like I would have done with my car. In addition I intend to rinse them monthly and perhaps use a thicker wax for the joints. Anyway, the tubes are much nicer to handle now, though I don't know if it makes a difference in the long run.

The double PVC sleeves are still a little tight when putting together the thick alu tubes of the coaming; I wonder if I could somehow grease them without attracting dust/sand. Would silicone spray work inside the sleeves?


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 5:06 pm 
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I got out saturday for quite a few hours. This time it was assembled included rudder in about 40 min. Had fun for the afternoon with a friend who has borrowed a fibreglass single. My 11y son preferred the single; I preferred mine, but I may be biased already :) Anyway the Ladoga is definitely more stable and at least not slower for me. We had forgot to take lunch nor drink, so at the end of the afternoon we headed quickly home, leaving the assembled Ladoga in a friend's garden for the night.

Sunday I finally got the sailing rig out. A three-piece alu mast, alu wishbone and a windsurfer-sail shape of thin, light and stiff material. I put it on very tight and flat. The wind was, like 3 m/s with gusts of 5 m/s, I think. I felt cocky enough to try the sail without the outriggers, so I put only the middle part of the front beam, on which the leeboard was fastened. Where this beam is fastened to the coaming, the velcro of the spray skirt cannot be completely closed. The mast socket should be fixed to the bottom tubes with a screwdriver (which I had forgotten - it is not needed for kayak assembly), but with a little wire I fixed it temporarily.

It was great fun to sail - though a little scary at first. It is awkward to lean while sitting in the "hole" and it helps only a little - but lots of progress was made by being quick to spill air when necessary - I'm used to that from the 420 dinghy. To my surprise, the leeboard and small rudder combination was not the problem I anticipated - for this first try, at least, sufficiently effective. Course corrections were slowish, but predictable. It points surprisingly high - about 45 deg, I think - but little progress is made at this angle, simply too slow. Making significant progress upwind was not hard at all at 50-60 deg, however surely slower than just paddling leisurely head-on to the wind. Used my GP to turn the boat during tacks. Reaching was fun, broad reach was great, great fun - when you are so close to the surface, the speed gives kind of a rush 8). When I get to go for longer trips, I guess I'll have to put the outriggers. The only reefing option is to stand up, take the mast out of the socket, and stow the parts below.
Or just leave the sail loose - then it has so little drag that at 5 m/s it does not produce any noticable heeling. With 2 persons it has a slight weater helm, which is good - but I wonder what I can do, if I want to sail it alone - it must have a strong lee helm then, and I don't see how I can counter that easily? There is no single seat position and no one-person spraydeck - I'll have to use the back seat. A leeboard further in front or perhaps a mast position between my legs? I had dreamt of trying my 420 foresail as foresail on the Ladoga - but it seems less realistic now, at least because of the likely lee helm.

As for paddles, I got two Kober Lago 240cm 60deg and one GP 222cm. I like the Lagos, their length fits us fine and they are not too heavy (fibreglass). The GP does not have drip rings, so water runs from hands to elbow, and I have to slide stroke a little all the time. But I am already hooked to the GP - easy and effective control strokes, the angle of entry is almost never missed and it never flutters, as the pushing hand rests at the broader shoulder. It is so light, it pulls me into an easy rhytm almost by itself, and I don't lift the pushing hand so much. It seems perfect for aerobic exercise, whereas the Kober is more for the change - and for the sprint. Only thing I miss is for the GP to be splittable like the Lagos. And perhaps 5-10 cm longer. My wife and teen kids prefer the Lagos, though.

All in all I'm in love with the whole thing, and I am really looking forward next trip - hopefully a full day trip.

I am aware that the Ladoga has an ambiguous legacy with previous models, and I am afraid that I am not in a position to make comparisons - I haven't had other kayaks, I haven't made longer trips in very salty water (nor am I likely to in the future) and I haven't - yet - discovered obvious or serious flaws. I probably won't go out in very trying conditions, nor do I have the experience of what really counts in those circumstances. And I am in the delightful process of discovery :D And at least assembly/disassembly is no longer a problem. The plastic bag inside the bow did the trick so disassembly is now almost effortless.

That said, how do you clean/rinse or dry the skin at home in an apartment? I can use our staircase (we have the upper half of a house) but it's really big and - well - unhandy. I unrolled the full 6 m of skin, took a big towel and dried off saltwater moisture, grass straws etc. from the inside and hung it like a giant hammock from one staircase corner to another. I think it worked, but you have to bow your head passing it on the stairs :roll:


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 6:52 pm 
rasmusmoller wrote:
And at least assembly/disassembly is no longer a problem. The plastic bag inside the bow did the trick so disassembly is now almost effortless.

That said, how do you clean/rinse or dry the skin at home in an apartment? I can use our staircase (we have the upper half of a house) but it's really big and - well - unhandy. I unrolled the full 6 m of skin, took a big towel and dried off saltwater moisture, grass straws etc. from the inside and hung it like a giant hammock from one staircase corner to another. I think it worked, but you have to bow your head passing it on the stairs :roll:


I didn't know the trick with plastic bag when using L1, and it cost me cracked plastic fitting in the bow sub-assembly, - because it took a tremendous efforts to pull the frame out of the skin. I had to wrap the fitting with a fiberglasss/epoxy sleeve, together with rivets. Keep on checking those fittings for cracks, - locks on the keelsen were not designed well in L1.

Salt water will affect some parts - few screws and nuts (if they are still not stainless), and grommets on the spraydeck (looking like brass, but in reality were just plated/painted with thin protective coat). It will aslo leave etching (corrosion) on aluminum tubes, as they are not anodized, and this can make dissembling difficult.

In apartment I wash all my folders, of which L1 was the longest (4.8 m), in bathtube, flipping the skin over a few times. Then leave it in bathtube to drain excessive water, dry it off with a towel, and then leave it either on the balcony, with ends bent up against the walls, or in living-room, on the tarp, with few ribs inside. Don't forget to close the inflation hoses before filling the bathube with water.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 2:34 am 
Hallo,

we are 2 beginners and we are going to by a boot - maybe a folding kajak. The kajak on the top of the list (also because of the price and the speed) is the Ladoga II. The next dealer is some km away, so I hope to get some information here.

How are the seats in the kajak (we like comfortable seats) and can the replaced by better seats?

How robust is the skin (read about a "thin" one)? We are beginners and wand want to paddle also on small rivers.

Is there enought space for luggage of 2 persons for moredays trips, including tent, thermerest, sleepungbag, ...?

Thank you all for help - if we buy one I tell you.

Torsten


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 9:32 am 
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Nimmersatt wrote:
Hallo,

we are 2 beginners and we are going to by a boot - maybe a folding kajak.The kajak on the top of the list (also because of the price and the speed) is the Ladoga II. The next dealer is some km away, so I hope to get some information here.

Disclaimer: I am also a beginner - don't expect me to be able to compare LII to other brands/models or to be able to judge its suitability for specific purposes. I like it, I enjoy it - that's all.

I hope you are strong for first assembly :) I find that you cannot make first assembly without bending the longerons very much - they can easily stand much bending, but you simply cannot make ends meet, if you try to keep them parallel during assembly. I am here talking about the final locking together af the last longerons in the process. Also please do not forget to use a big plastic garbage bag between the bow structure and the inside of the bow skin - otherwise it is kind of stuck! The manual is not good, but it is not difficult to figure out on your own - otherwise feel free to ask me.
Nimmersatt wrote:
How are the seats in the kajak (we like comfortable seats) and can they be replaced by better seats?
Note that there is Lagoda II and Ladoga II Adv. on the market. Pictures of the old model shows very rudimentary seats. My LII Adv. came with good dark green thick canvas "hammock" seats, suspended from side ribs and with a pocket for optional padding. I padded mine with some pink, soft computer-foam and both wife and I like them a lot. The backrests are the same material, but much smaller - adjustable, too, but they cannot be padded and I really think I will need better back support in the form of a pillow of a kind.
Nimmersatt wrote:
How robust is the skin (read about a "thin" one)? We are beginners and wand want to paddle also on small rivers.
The skin is really strong and rather heavy. There are keelstrips as reinforcement along all longerons on the bottom. I also intend to paddle small, quiet rivers and I am not afraid of abrasion running aground. I have no whitewater experience at all, but I am pretty certain that LII is NOT right for turbulent whitewater!
Nimmersatt wrote:
Is there enought space for luggage of 2 persons for moredays trips, including tent, thermerest, sleepungbag, ...?
I intend to make shorter trips (<1 week) with tent. You will need drybags/boxes of a kind, as there is only one big compartment. Before buying LII Adv. myself, I contacted another Danish couple, who had already used LII for their trip around Fiji, see links for a map of their trip and pictures from their trip - they said they had no space problems. The LII comes in one very big adjustable backpack, actually quite a good one to wear on your back. Even though I am a 185/90 and athletic, because of its weight, I would NOT enjoy using it for walking longer distances, like between lakes/rivers.
Nimmersatt wrote:
Thank you all for help - if we buy one I tell you.
Ok, but I don't really want to be the Triton/Ladoga "evangelist". My first love, which I couldn't afford, is the Folbot GII.
I think Triton have adressed some of the weaknesses of the past with their Adv. series, but if the price difference had been smaller, I'd probably still take a Folbot GII on its reputation alone. Slower and twice the price (in EU), but anodized tubing and plenty af space and enthusiastic user crowd and outstanding service. I have not used Triton's or my dealer out-trade's service yet, so I just have no data yet. Mind you, I would have bought the GII from out-trade, too, and they have been really nice, responsive and helpful so far. And I do love the LII Adv. that I could afford :)

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Rasmus Møller

Triton Ladoga II Adv+3.5m2 sail+outriggers
"Nova" SOF from 1928
Euro + GP


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 10:47 am 
Thank you very much for all hints:

I mean the latest version LII advanced. I have seen wooden boards as seats, and I am sure, that it will be hard after some hours. But the canvas seats might be OK.

The next kajaks on the list are Folbot GII and Fujita AL2-460 but the price is much more, so we will see.

Thanks a lot


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 11:46 am 
Hello
Can you send some pictures
Is there any option to be used from one paddler?


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 3:34 pm 
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What would you like pictures of? - my model is from 2006. Colors, quality, features (and price) have changed since then.

It is not hard (for me) to paddle alone from the back seat using the rudder, if there is not too much head/side wind. Otherwise could put 50+ kg of weight in front.

Or use my outriggers+side board (that I bought along with the sail option) - that would slow me down some, but anyway single paddling a double will always be slower bc. of the wetted surface.

It has worked fine for me to be able paddle with my wife - she would have hesitated to paddle a single and keep the pace. I have taken it alone sometimes - works fine for just getting out there.

I dont assemble/disassemble it very often - mostly use it as a hardshell on/off the car, keeping it hanging under the carport. I very seldom use the sail, though it works fine. But if I'm out with the sail and my wife in front, she gets frustrated that she cannot participate, and if there is enough wind to make it move smartly, then there is also enough waves to splash her too much :)

You could sit in the middle section without the spraydeck and spray cover - I dont like salt water dripping in the boat, though, so I'd prefer to use them or make a custom 1 (or 3) person spraydeck.

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Rasmus Møller

Triton Ladoga II Adv+3.5m2 sail+outriggers
"Nova" SOF from 1928
Euro + GP


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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 10:16 am 
Thanks about your helpfull reply.
I am very interesting of bying this kayak model! Does the rudder helps with sailing?
! I have a kubia kayaksailor.com sail kit! Maybe it works fine with it (without outriggers).


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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 12:23 pm 
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Sailing is painful and inefficient without rudder (and leeboard) unless going downwind.
I recommend you go for the biggest rudder available, if you want to sail - you'll steer naturally with your feet on pedals.
You need a leeboard to tack (go upwind).

Congratulations with your kubia kayaksailor.com sail kit - it looks great and well conceived.
It seems there are 1.4 and 1.6 m2 models - which one do you have? - and do you have a jib too? and leeboard?

Anyway, my sailing experience is with the 3.5m2 sail (mast is 4.5m high) and I tried it without outriggers a rather calm day on a lake with no waves. It was much too tippy for me - no real progress, because all my attention was focused on not turning over. The Kayaksailor is much smaller and lower so I see no reason why you could not try it without outriggers. It might work for fun, especially if the wind is stable with no puffs and no waves. That is a rare condition, where I live.

I see the utility of a sail in two situations:

1: A great variation for fooling around in medium/high winds for a short while - you can reach scary speeds, but without outriggers you tire quickly , and you must expect some swimming.

2: For multi-day touring, if the sail is easy to strike and/or you use outriggers. It is great to be able to pause paddling and still move on. But the mast/outriggers will annoy one of 2 paddlers (no problem if paddling alone from the backseat in Ladoga2). And if the wind dies completely, the outriggers slow you down a little, but allow your butt great relief, as you can stand up when you want.

All in all, sails are fun and I like them, but more often than not, you'll just have a few hours after work to paddle, and it'll take too much time to assemble/disassemble sails and outriggers to be worth it.

But as you already have the KayakSailor sail, please do use it with or without outriggers, and do tell us how it works for you!

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Rasmus Møller

Triton Ladoga II Adv+3.5m2 sail+outriggers
"Nova" SOF from 1928
Euro + GP


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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 12:52 pm 
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I see you posted in the sailing section, and I read the thread.

If the other guys liked the sail on Klepper A2, you'll probably be fine with Ladoga2 without outriggers - and I hadn't noticed that it can be raised and lowered so easily on the water. It might work fine without rudder by changing leeboard angle, but I'd still recommend a (big) rudder for the peace of mind and to make course corrections without wasting paddle strokes.

You'll have to find a way to attach it firmly to the Alu tubes of the skeleton. If you are a decent handyman, no problem.

Be warned that it is hard work to assemble the Ladoga 2 the first few times! Expect to sweat and curse for an hour!

Seriously it is a great double kayak once assembled - and easily driven. I like it a lot, but use it mostly like a hardshell.
I only assemble/disassemble it 1-2 times per year (my neighbor graciously lets me hang it in his carport during summertime). But if I had permanent storage and transport for a hardshell I would probably be better off.

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Rasmus Møller

Triton Ladoga II Adv+3.5m2 sail+outriggers
"Nova" SOF from 1928
Euro + GP


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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 1:17 pm 
lord high faltbotmeister

Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2011 1:51 pm
Posts: 616
Location: Colombo, Sri Lanka
rasmusmoller wrote:
I see the utility of a sail in two situations:

1: A great variation for fooling around in medium/high winds for a short while - you can reach scary speeds, but without outriggers you tire quickly , and you must expect some swimming.

2: For multi-day touring, if the sail is easy to strike and/or you use outriggers. It is great to be able to pause paddling and still move on. But the mast/outriggers will annoy one of 2 paddlers (no problem if paddling alone from the backseat in Ladoga2). And if the wind dies completely, the outriggers slow you down a little, but allow your butt great relief, as you can stand up when you want.

Rasmus,
Not sure how much this applies to heavy double kayaks, but as a very recent convert to paddle sailing, a sail seems like the perfect complement to a portable folding kayak even for one day trips in that you can put in upwind of your destination then paddle sail downwind to a ferry/train/bus station beyond how far you could normally travel in a day before returning home or to the put in point, allowing you to explore areas you might not otherwise get to that often.

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Simon

Pakboats Quest 135, Nautiraid Narak 460, 416 & K1 (sold my 550), First light 420, Feathercraft Wisper, Fujita Alpina AL-1 400, Incept k40 (for sale)
Non-folders: Cape Falcon F1. Beth sailing canoe, 2014 Hobie Adventure Island


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