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 Post subject: TROLLING MOTORS
PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 6:27 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:40 pm
Posts: 1006
Location: isles of scilly UK
We have all seen the gas engine which might be for sale. Has anyone looked into using low cost electric trolling motors on our kayaks?. If batteries are available that are not too heavy and give sufficient endurance


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 Post subject: Re: TROLLING MOTORS
PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 6:54 pm 
lord high faltbotmeister

Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:05 am
Posts: 801
Location: atlanta, georgia
John,
Yes, I have experience with both gas (a 2 1/2 hp antique sideboard, circa 1938) and a very new technology Torqeedo electric motor. The Torqeedo required some custom fabrication to get it to mount on my folders but I am very happy with the results. I get 4-6 mph of quiet propulsion and the range is almost unbelievable. At lower speeds, say 3 mph, I can get 50+ miles out of the optional high capacity battery. Would be happy to post pics if that would help.

g

_________________
"There is nothing--absolutely nothing--half so much worth doing as simply messing around in boats"

1990's A1 Expedition
2010 Klepper Quattro
Kayaksailer
Balogh sail rig, 24 + 36 HP
Torqeedo outboard
1938 Sachs-Fichtel seitenbordmotor


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 Post subject: Re: TROLLING MOTORS
PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 4:44 am 
knight of the folding kayak realm

Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 6:42 pm
Posts: 412
Good question--and answer. I love kayaking for the peace and quiet and being in nature, so the thought of a 2 stroke engine humming in my ear is somewhat antithetical to me. But I remember my great aunt using an outboard on her canoe to get around Canadian lakes. For her it was transport rather than leisure. The Torqeedo sounds like it would deal with the problem of noise ...


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 Post subject: Re: TROLLING MOTORS
PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 9:08 am 
lord high faltbotmeister

Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:05 am
Posts: 801
Location: atlanta, georgia
Re: "modified kayak propulsion"...

The debate about the appropriateness of modification of something that has history, standards, and deep cultural connections will persist and, sometimes, rage. Kayaks are icons of a connection with nature that can be traced through history like few other symbols. I certainly understand a purist attitude toward enjoyment of the sport, and I think such an attitude can enhance the experience for some.

For me, I choose to use every means available to enhance my enjoyment of being on the water. Paddle, sail, motor, float, whatever.

I found an antique (1938) sideboard kayak motor in Germany and was moved by the design, engineering, and craftsmanship of this amazing pre-war machine. I imported it and completely enjoyed the time I spent restoring the motor and fitting it to my 1969 Klepper. I only used it once, and may never take it on the water again. For me, it was about appreciating the old school technology and restoring it to making it work (again). And it is not particularly loud, it sounds more like a detuned 4-cycle engine, emitting a low frequency thrum vs. what you would hear from a modern 2 stroke powerplant. But it is heavy, it interferes with paddling, and it scares the birds. Ironically, these motors were very, very popular in Germany in the years leading up to WW2. Then they all but disappeared. After the war the market for both folding kayaks and motors consolidated within a few major manufacturers (Klepper and Tummler being most prominent). Now...well, we know the story with folders.

I recently found an electric motor that had everything I wanted for an augmentive power source. The Torqeedo is a pretty amazing piece of technology and it gives me the range to paddle and/or sail with complete confidence in more situations than I could otherwise venture into. It does not interfere at all with paddling or sailing (unless you are dumb enough to lose control of the hauling sheet and get it fouled in the rudder, but I take the 5th on that...) and it gives me a range that exceeds my longest day on the water, with 50 miles+ capability. It is almost silent and unobtrusive in every other way. When paddling or sailing I forget it is there. It took quite a bit of fabrication to mount it on my folders but the effort was worthwhile, imo.

So go ahead and drop that small block Chevy motor in your classic Porsche, and paint your stately Georgian manor bright yellow, if that is what floats your boat. IMHO.

Best,
g

_________________
"There is nothing--absolutely nothing--half so much worth doing as simply messing around in boats"

1990's A1 Expedition
2010 Klepper Quattro
Kayaksailer
Balogh sail rig, 24 + 36 HP
Torqeedo outboard
1938 Sachs-Fichtel seitenbordmotor


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 Post subject: Re: TROLLING MOTORS
PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 11:28 am 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:40 pm
Posts: 1006
Location: isles of scilly UK
I have just looked at the TORQEEDO, the first thing you get is ; sticker shock; when compared to what is available on amazon, but then we would probably get what we pay for. As a non kayaker said when I bought my first Klepper, :you could buy a real sailboat for that: so after a while the cost subsides and it,s how do I pay for it. Wayland do an outboard on the side which might be ok, no price yet. As regards being a purist type where only paddle power is used. a few months ago a cross Atlantic kayaker put into the Scilly Isles on his way from the USA to France and of course his kayak was very questionable about it being a kayak although it was a great achivment in crossing the north Atlantic.


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 Post subject: Re: TROLLING MOTORS
PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 5:35 pm 
knight of the folding kayak realm

Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 6:42 pm
Posts: 412
I can certainly appreciate the engineering in these things. And the joy and satisfaction in making something old and beautifully engineered work again.
:-)
As I said before, a nice discussion.


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 Post subject: Re: TROLLING MOTORS
PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 6:53 am 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:40 pm
Posts: 1006
Location: isles of scilly UK
I have been looking further into electric propulsion and. If the outboard is mounted on the side of the kayak on an ;arm; that sticks out then paddling on the side where the motor is can,t be done. I use a canoe paddle with my sails but it still requires paddling on both sides, so the Torqeedo seems a better option. On their web site there dosn,t seem to be a mounting method for folders. So g can you let us know how you did it as the only good place for the outboard is behind the rudder.


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 Post subject: Re: TROLLING MOTORS
PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 11:02 am 
lord high faltbotmeister

Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:05 am
Posts: 801
Location: atlanta, georgia
I agree on all counts John. Mounting a motor as a true sideboard has so many issues: it interferes with paddling, it does make some noise with cavitation, it is lopsided and even with the diminutive weight of an electric compared with an internal combustion it upsets the balance of the kayak, and it is very inefficient or impossible to steer. I will take some pics of my prototype, which works great as is, but which can surely stand some improvements from this creative forum.

g

_________________
"There is nothing--absolutely nothing--half so much worth doing as simply messing around in boats"

1990's A1 Expedition
2010 Klepper Quattro
Kayaksailer
Balogh sail rig, 24 + 36 HP
Torqeedo outboard
1938 Sachs-Fichtel seitenbordmotor


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 Post subject: Re: TROLLING MOTORS
PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 5:25 pm 
lord high faltbotmeister

Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:05 am
Posts: 801
Location: atlanta, georgia
Having some trouble uploading pics, hope this works.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

Here is link to pics of mounting plate for Torqeedo. The plate is a prototype that fits either the A1 or 2. When in use, the slots in the front of the plate are lashed to the d-rings, the slots are cut to accept the rings of the a-2 and I use a cross strap to fit them on the A1. The stern is attached with a screw through the plate and into the flag hole in the rudder assembly on the Klepper. The plate is 1/4" 6061 aluminum, which is WAY overkill, 1/8" will probably work. I fabricated it by cutting a kerf, bending the sheet, then welding at the correct angle. The geometry of the pulleys allows the motor to turn in synch with the rudder. The fairing on the Torqeedo is adapted from a Yakima roof rack, and it fits just right, so that is why the rig says "Yakima". Hope that makes sense, I look forward to suggestions,
g

Oh, and another thing...
Here is the antique Sachs Fichtel motor. You can listen to it run in the first clip in this link...I think,

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

_________________
"There is nothing--absolutely nothing--half so much worth doing as simply messing around in boats"

1990's A1 Expedition
2010 Klepper Quattro
Kayaksailer
Balogh sail rig, 24 + 36 HP
Torqeedo outboard
1938 Sachs-Fichtel seitenbordmotor


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 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: TROLLING MOTORS
PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 9:30 am 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:40 pm
Posts: 1006
Location: isles of scilly UK
Thank you for showing all of us how you mounted the Torqeedo. It,s not what I expected. The system looks well made and thought out. Having the motor turn with the rudder looks excellent and not like klepper do it adding it to the rudder, sort of. Klepper don,t really show how they have done it. As you have the motor turning I suppose if the motor dos,nt turn it is hard to using the rudder only To get any thing made I would have to go to the local metal shop as I no longer have a garage, large shed or car, my folders have to be unassembled and the skins folded up. I have been looking at all the motors available and the Torqeedo seems to be the only one with remote engine control. All the others seem to have their controls on the motor, I have no idea if any can be converted. I will be looking into motors and cost over the next month or two . I now only have the sea for kayaking. I think now a lot of interest will be created, the forum seems to need a boost.


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 Post subject: Re: TROLLING MOTORS
PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 6:12 am 
forum fan

Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2017 8:21 pm
Posts: 17
Very interesting. Your fabrication skills are superb.


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 Post subject: Re: TROLLING MOTORS
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:56 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:40 pm
Posts: 1006
Location: isles of scilly UK
A very well thought out set up and excellent looking system. I expected the motor to be attached to the rudder but this is much more of a challenge especially starting from scratch. I no longer have the facilities to try and copy it. I have seen an Australian electric set up if it is still available, called a vorta DX3 which can easily be rudder mounted. It has a lot less power than the Torqeedo and is half the weight, but the power of this vorta is about the same as some I have seen on the UK amazon. One thing I have noticed is that a lot of trolling motors in the USA are for bow mounting, over here they are all transom mounts. Unfortunatly I can,t send or receive e-mails at present, so I have to get someone in to look at the computer. Some apps have been down loaded by accident and the e-mail facility disappeared, now I don,t know how to delete the apps.


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 Post subject: Re: TROLLING MOTORS
PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:07 pm 
lord high faltbotmeister

Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:05 am
Posts: 801
Location: atlanta, georgia
Thanks for the kind words, I appreciate it. And it looks a lot more complicated than it really is. The goal was to fabricate a system that would allow me to use the motor and rudder completely independently...I can raise the motor and just use the rudder or, as I usually do, raise the rudder and just use the motor for propulsion and steering. Using both at the same time works ok but there is always some unwanted drag created from the prop turbulence acting on the rudder. So I designed it with all that complicated-looking geometry to allow independent operation of either.
This is a prototype and the next go will be much cleaner. I used 1/4 inch aluminum for the plate. This is too thick to be bent, I needed to kerf, bend, and weld. Next go will be 1/8 inch aluminum sheet, which is the same thickness as a stock Klepper rudder. I believe that will be thick enough to support the motor but thin enough to bend without welding. I am also going to ditch the pulleys in favor of a cable control system for steering. Same geometry but using bicycle brake cables/housing and adjusting bosses to link the Klepper rudder with the Torqeedo steering yoke. I am searching for some inexpensive off-the-shelf components, and any thoughts are welcome!
I did consider using a less expensive trolling motor for the head unit but went with the Torqeedo for several reasons. Yes, it is expensive and probably more so than it needs/will be. But the kicker is the battery and energy control system. The battery is far more powerful than the standard marine batteries (and WAY more expensive) because it uses the latest lithium technology pioneered by BMW and it incorporates its own GPS and integrated throttle system. You could probably mix and match to create a similar system but I think the cost would end up nearly the same for a "mismatched" system.

Just my $.02. I am a wannabe engineer/shade tree mechanic with NO pride of ownership, and I welcome any advice and will share all that I have learned.

Best,
g

_________________
"There is nothing--absolutely nothing--half so much worth doing as simply messing around in boats"

1990's A1 Expedition
2010 Klepper Quattro
Kayaksailer
Balogh sail rig, 24 + 36 HP
Torqeedo outboard
1938 Sachs-Fichtel seitenbordmotor


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 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: TROLLING MOTORS
PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:03 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:40 pm
Posts: 1006
Location: isles of scilly UK
It is good that the motor can be raised as I can think of many places where having it down can cause damage. I agree that it is always best to buy the best, that's why in 1976 the folder I bought was a klepper, which was considered the best at the time and available from New York. ( I still have it with a new skin) The cheap motors I have looked at on line seem to indicate the problem in needing heavy batteries and these out board have the controls on the steering handle which is ok on a small boat or dingy with a transom but not so on a Klepper. The Klepper electric solar system has their motor on the rudder but I can see problems apart from the cost. Hobie use the Torqeedo in two locations, one where the pedals are so you lose these and would have to use paddles when required, and lift it out on beaching. Their other method is to have the motor on the rudder with a fin below it which might save the motor if hitting an under water obstruction.


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