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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 11:53 am 
forum fan

Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:53 am
Posts: 14
Social media, Facebook and the others are where 99 % of the attention is today. Bag boats are still at "Fabulous Folbot Holidays" J. Kissner. You think that will attract kids - think again. Yes it's what started my wife and I. But you the industry needs to come up with a new dream, and by dream an exposure to the folding boat so as the future buyer catches a fever has the save to purchase. Also on the subject migrating this old fashion forum format to Facebook would be a step forward


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 3:38 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:40 pm
Posts: 1161
Location: isles of scilly UK
This old fashioned format. Facebook can be a pain, the facebook people, if there are any won,t let me sign in to my account. no form of enquiry will get any response from them. A folding kayak section could be put on facebook by someone without destroying this forum. Even on facebook it won,t arouse interest from young people. Only exposure to folders might help, the manufacturers can,t afford advertising so it is us owners of folders who can go out and let people see our craft and the assembly of them. I have found it much easier to assemble my Klepper or Folbot than put a hardshell on a roof rack and take it off. But I don,t expect teenagers to be interested, perhaps their parents might be. Talking of exposure there are many short sequences on youtube of folders and of them sailing.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:13 am 
paddler

Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2018 2:55 pm
Posts: 7
Location: Würzburg Germany
Ich und meine Freundin,lieben das Faltboot Segeln. Wir haben einen alten Klepper Aerius 2(1960) mit alter S4 Besegelung mit 5qm Segelfläche und einen Hellas-Klepper aus (1950) mit Bauwoll Luggersegel . Wir ziehen soweit es das Wetter zulässt los und haben schon viele Seen erkundet.Allerdings sind wir über 40 Jahre und können keine jungen Menschen begeistern. Die wollen ehr Kiten, Surfen, Reisen. Die meisten Kids mögen es ja schnell und mit wenig Ballast. Die Liebe zum Entschleunigen kommt dann später über 30 Jahre von ganz alleine :-) Die die es lieben werden zum Faltboot finden. Ich mag besonders die speziellen Menschen die ich oft auf Treffen kennengelernt habe. Das macht den besonderen Reiz an diesem Nieschenhobby auch aus.
Liebe Grüße und gute Fahrt

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Captain Bartolo, Klepper Aerius2, S4 Besegelung; Hellas-Klepper von ca.1950 mit Gaffelsegel


Last edited by Bartolo on Tue Feb 27, 2018 11:15 am, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 12:52 pm 
knight of the folding kayak realm

Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2011 6:09 pm
Posts: 291
BillTexHoyt wrote:
Social media, Facebook and the others are where 99 % of the attention is today. Bag boats are still at "Fabulous Folbot Holidays" J. Kissner. You think that will attract kids - think again. Yes it's what started my wife and I. But you the industry needs to come up with a new dream, and by dream an exposure to the folding boat so as the future buyer catches a fever has the save to purchase. Also on the subject migrating this old fashion forum format to Facebook would be a step forward

Trak actually seems pretty astute with web marketing and social media. For instance, they have many enticing videos on their YouTube channel.

I think their ultra-hyped marketing is actually both a strenght and liability: It's a strength because it generates so much excitement; a weakness because the web site product description lacks informative details (lots of great pix, few written details). As I've written before, Pakboats has the inverse problem; informative descriptions, mostly mundane pix.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 2:35 pm 
knight of the folding kayak realm

Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2011 9:22 am
Posts: 424
Location: Coastal New Jersey
Advertising or no, the salad days of the sea kayak are about done. Here on Florida's Gulf Coast these days, I see scores of short, wide plastic barges, mostly rented by outfitters to visitors who may have never paddled a kayak, barge-like or not, and just want to go out on the bay for a couple of hours with a group, maybe thrill to a close encounter with a dolphin, manatee or ray. And perhaps a few of these will enjoy the experience enough to make them want to learn more about double-paddle craft even if it's only a short, bargy SOT or, even better, an SUP. Anything that gets a paddle in their hands is likely a good thing. It might even get them into a folder but the chances of that are small to the point where certain Jersey paddlers (like me) might just say,"fuhgeddaboudit". For better or worse, we live in an age that places a high value on convenience. As Apathizer suggests, there are three basic reasons for acquiring a folding kayak: lack of storage space, travel/portability, and lightweight. Convenience is not on the short list. The feeling one gets by the way a skin-on-frame folding kayak swims through the water and over the waves or the sound that falling rain makes as it drums upon a taut deck can only be known through personal experience and not through any sort of advertising. To make a bleak picture even more drab, the folder is an unlikely craft for the young. As Bartolo points out, the young are held in the thrall of whatever is fast and exciting and, as he notes, it may take thirty more years or so before they're ready to decelerate. I wonder if there will be any folding kayaks around by then. I certainly won't be but I expect that my Feathercraft will yet be extant.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 6:21 pm 
lord high faltbotmeister
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Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:05 am
Posts: 882
Location: atlanta, georgia
Alv, thanks for the insights and perspective, they are both appreciated. Jake, I think you are spot on as well. So why not go with the flow of interest (and disposable income) that seems to be concentrated in a decidedly older market segment? If I was trying to energize the market for folders I believe I would try an appeal to the boomers (and whatever their equivalent is outside the U.S.) with a fountain of youth/ relive your salad days message. REI is out; LL Bean is in, at least with many in my generation. Just my $.02.

g

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"There is nothing--absolutely nothing--half so much worth doing as simply messing around in boats"

1988 A1 Expedition
2010 carbon Klepper Quattro
BSD sail rig, 24' mizzen + 36' main
39' jib
Torqeedo outboard
1938 Sachs-Fichtel seitenbordmotor


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 1:42 pm 
lord high faltbotmeister
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Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:46 am
Posts: 585
Location: inland Pennsylvania, USA
I've been touting folders on a new Facebook group set up for paddlers over 55. Many of the posts are from people who are seeking suggestions because of health issues and their increasing age making it hard to handle heavy plastic boats. Some are looking for advice about combining travel with kayaking. I get positive feedback from the group members when I point out the lightness and portability of folders -- most seem surprised that folders even exist and genuinely curious about them. I just wish I had better websites to which to refer them. For instance, when I tell people about SOF (skin on frame rigid kayaks, which I also love) I can send them to Brian Schulz's excellent and inspiring Cape Falcon Kayak website and blog, full of great information and fantastic photography.

I suppose what I could and should do is take some time to set up my own website, following Brian's example, to collect and share data about folders, with tabs for history and galleries to illustrate how they are assembled, how light they are, how well they paddle and sail and what models are currently available. Also a list of links (including to this forum, of course). In the end it would save me a lot of time in typing my typical long-winded explanations if I just had it all in one place I could hyperlink. My brother is a graphic designer and marketing specialist and one of my best friends sets up and maintains websites for people professionally so I have the resources I would need. No excuse for not doing it other than my procrastination.

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Current:
Feathercraft Wisper
Pakboat Quest 135
Pakboat Puffin 12
Pakboat Swift 14
Greenland SOF
P & H Easky 15LV
Previous:
Feathercraft Kahuna
Feathercraft K-1 Expedition
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 1:25 pm 
knight of the folding kayak realm

Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 6:42 pm
Posts: 475
Am I mistaken in thinking that there was more on this forum for a while--including a gallery of photos--until a webhack made the owner take a lot of it down? (Temporarily? I think its been a few years now.) I know there still is quite a lot of info on the main site here http://www.foldingkayaks.org/WP/ but of course most of us live in the forum rather than visiting the main site.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 4:19 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:40 pm
Posts: 1161
Location: isles of scilly UK
I think all is now here except the photo gallery which I think members had to have a sort of folder of photos, members couldn,t add odd photos. Mike will make this clear. I am still looking at the various electric outboard systems which should now go into the coffee house for discussion.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:33 pm 
faltbootemeister

Joined: Tue May 29, 2012 9:47 pm
Posts: 100
One of the original rationales for going with the folder concept: airline travel. I know that that was part of the original appeal for me when I bought my first used folder, a Tyne tandem__still my favourite folder__back in the mid-nineties. Four more used folders acquired since then, and I've yet to ever take one with me on a flight. Well, this year Tahiti beckons! Tickets bought! Major family happening. Ok, what about taking along one of my folders? Hmmm... Baggage charges, no matter how I disguise the beast (call it a "surf-ski", re-package it, etc.) will cost me at least $600 US. Canada-Papeete. Possibly more like $800. Not happening. Kleppers have long pieces and weigh between 60 lbs. for an A1 and 75 lbs. for an A2. Airline baggage policy was more generous in the past. It isn't at all generous now. The alternatives: buy a Pakboat which packs considerably smaller and in one bag. Or an inflatable, i.e. Sea Eagle Razorlite or similar, or... drum roll, please!... an inflatable SUP! This last option will actually get on the plane free of charge and still allow me to sneak in a few pairs of shorts and underwear without baggage penalties. The 30-lb. pack can be easily manhandled in and out of the airports. Assembled and on the water in under 10 minutes. Although I often SUP-paddle Canadian open canoes, up to now I've always regarded SUP boarding with deep skepticism. Well, all that may be about to change! I confess to finding some of the paddle-boarding promotional images hard to resist: pictures of smiling outdoorsmen fishing off of them, young people, serious mindfulness practitioners, also smiling (granted, some looking a trifle smug, but hey! it's probably just the camera-angle), women with strapping big dogs aboard and men with approving girlfriends, solid citizens hauling coolers, androgynous bodies snorkelling off of them, airport pics of teeny-wee backpacks on smiling, confident travellers. And did I mention the many bikini-clad female practitioners and tanned-and-tatted-shirtless-with-6-pack males. And if the latter aren't exactly out-of-the-closet reikei practitioners, they're at least "yoga- tolerant" and "keeping an open mind about it". Of Scottish extraction and still in possession of at least part of a functioning brain, I'm moved to roll my eyes at this last predictable and eternally successful marketing strategy. Bikinis and brawn! Though I might be willing, in this case, to forgive the vulgarity and just turn the other cheek. SUP's: my future! OUR future! At least for a few years more. Surgeon General's Caution (humourless bastards!) : remember rollerblades? Where did they all disappear to?


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 6:53 am 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:40 pm
Posts: 1161
Location: isles of scilly UK
Folding kayaks won,t die, but it will no longer have the enthusiasts it had in the 1930,s. Just like ballroom dancing, every town in the UK had a dance hall but now they are all gone, there are ballroom dancers but not many in realistic terms. Watching dancing with the stars in North America or Strictly in the UK, which are almost the same means that it is now a spectator event. Paddle boards are popular because it is fairly easy to start and most people are not interested in going on canoe routes as I did in Ontario. Just a bit of paddling near their cottage or on a lake in a park, a paddle board or cheap sit on top is good enough. The sales of hardshell sea kayaks must reduce in number except for the enthusiast who just wants another one, that's why most of us have a number of kayaks when we only really need one. Paddle boards are now being fitted with electric motors and some are fast so those who want to tear around at high speed can without having to buy a waterscooter or similar. I think that this is another subject that needs to go into the coffee house.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2018 9:53 am 
recent arrival

Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2018 7:25 am
Posts: 1
merone wrote:
The auto industry has been chasing the myth that young people aren't interested in cars: "Cars don't fit the millennial lifestyle". "Social media and fancy tech are the secret to selling cars to young people".

Young people don't buy new cars findourpad.com | https://www.findourpad.com/seattle/seattle-condos-for-sale/ | https://www.gsf-promounts.com/extreme-heavy-duty-steel-slides/ because most of them can't afford them. Folding Kayak are a niche luxury item, for many of my peers (I'm unfortunately just young enough to get lumped in with millennials) a $300 plastic kayak is a big investment. https://minotaurfightstore.co.uk/mens-f ... ction-men/

Folding kayaks won't hold up to to the use and abuse young people will put them through. A plastic kayak can paddled down a sand dune, dragged behind a car, thrown of the roof of a frat house and still float.

Setup time is also an issue, young people are impatient.

If you want young people do buy folders it needs to be indestructible, fast to set up, and be priced closed to $300. If you could do that you would be back here complaining of all the young people clogging your favorite paddles spots.

As for the couple living in the van: Every generation has it's own version of the hippie and every generation fails to see itself in the next incarnation. useful how to stop panic attacks at night


I agree with all the above, Young people do not want to go through the hassle of setting up a folding kayak which would take up to 40 minutes for someone who is not too familiar with this kind of thing. The adrenaline pumping through their bodies would not bode well with this.

Folding kayaks rate highly to the older generation because of the traveling convenience, most young people can not afford both the kayak and a car. This have to be pocket friendly to convince future generations to accept them


Last edited by Hanka on Sun Nov 10, 2019 1:16 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2018 5:32 am 
forum fanatic

Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 9:50 am
Posts: 39
I there, my name is Guillaume and I work now at Nautiraid sales. To our sense there is a future for our boats, for the paddling market in general is definitely not oriented towards the youngsters. Our UK importer, who is in his mid forties, told me once that he never sold a kayak to a customer younger than him. For sure he lives in an ageing country with estates at stratospheric cost : people only have time and money to spend in outdoors when they reach the 40-50 mark. But at this time in your life you don't want to buy a cheap or futuristic or common boat. Here comes the success (in other markets) of the neo-retro styling : Mini cars, Triumph or Royal Enfield motorcycles, Frost River backpacks, Spirit yachts, etc. That's where the Nautiraid folders want to be with attention to design and detail, varnished wood, comfort seats, wood paddles, western Europe hand crafting etc. That will be a way to get the head out of the water for the dropstitch kayak tsunami is hitting the collapsible kayak market (and the recreational plastic one too). Cheap alu framed boats will have a hard time against them. For sure at Nautiraid we are fortunate enough to rely also on the military sales, such as the replacement of the UK commando fleet - for the SAS and SBS swapped their Kleppers to Nautiraids last year. Hopefully for the civilian market there is a future in the so called "spirit of tradition" trend.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:18 am 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:40 pm
Posts: 1161
Location: isles of scilly UK
You throw a ray of light on the subject. That there is a future for folders, good news for you about the military and bad for Klepper who have made their own hole which they will disappear into if they are not careful. At a Toronto show a few years ago where Klepper and Folbot were on show an older visitor to the show said to me, I didn,t know these boats were still made, which really illustrated the problem, not enough exposure, the general public don,t know they exist, the people who might buy them don,t know they are still available. It,s like my main camera, it,s a Sigma set at 100 ISO (ASA) Which most people wouldn,t cope with, unless they have lots of experience with film cameras.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:19 am 
Site Admin

Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 12:34 pm
Posts: 1835
Location: Southeast Michigan
idc wrote:
Am I mistaken in thinking that there was more on this forum for a while--including a gallery of photos--until a webhack made the owner take a lot of it down? (Temporarily? I think its been a few years now.) I know there still is quite a lot of info on the main site here http://www.foldingkayaks.org/WP/ but of course most of us live in the forum rather than visiting the main site.


Correct. I had a serious hack via the gallery that resulted in many days of work to restore the site and purge it of malicious code. I haven’t installed new gallery software as I’m concerned about future assaults. We still have a Flickr group for posting and sharing photos.

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