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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 10:28 pm 
Those modern cleats - called "horn cleats" - are available for $3 or so, at kayaking and boating stores. Black ones are nylon, USA made, 5" long * 1.5" between the holes. This is not Delrin (stronger plastic used in heavier loads in larger sails), but it is good. Sometimes there are very similar metal cleats made of alumium powder, Chinese, about the same price, poor quality and inaccurate size.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 1:05 am 
You are correct. I don't even know how much I don't know!!!

I have the older style with the hook on the mast and eye on the forward end of the boom. I would guess the boat is about 25 years old (or more)

g, does your rig have the snap/clip which attaches to the gaff boom and clips around the mainmast? If so, how do you get it in the pocket on the top of the sail??

How do you attach the halyard to raise the mainsail?

Photos would be appreciated!!

Thanks

Don


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:24 am 
lord high faltbotmeister

Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:05 am
Posts: 865
Location: atlanta, georgia
Administrator, you may want to move this to a more appropriate folder as I am about to drone on about the sail rig question...


Don,

My AII is circa 1969. Yes, it has the clip you mention, it is attached to the gaff with a bracket that must be removed in order to mount the sail. The main sheet is hauled up by the halyard from its attachment at the bottom of the gaff, through the top pulley and then back down through the bottom pulley (located where the cleat is in the newer version), secured at either of the aft combing cleats. Not ideal, I would really like to revise with mast cleats like the ones Alex shows.

I am traveling and not able to get to the boat to show you pics until Christmas, but I would be glad to show you what mine looks like then. I also have instructions on the S-4, in English, but I found them to be of limited usefulness. They are for the newer version and there are several differences from my old rig.

On that subject, I am nervous about attaching cleats to the main mast, for fear of weakening this already-fragile aluminum tube. Alex or others, do you have any advice on that?

Here is wishing everyone a happy and safe holiday, and thanks for this helpful kayak community.

Best,
g


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 12:32 am 
g-

An EXCELLENT drone!!!

You answered a couple of my questions!

1. I need to remove the clip from the gaff boom in order to mount the sail.

2. The halyard for the mainsail attaches somewhere near the hook on the bottom of the gaff boom, rather than on the clip assembly.

I feel this is progress in the job of understanding how the S-4 works!

Thanks for the offer of photos- whenever is convenient for you!

Thank you!!

Don


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 2:09 am 
Quote:
I am nervous about attaching cleats to the main mast, for fear of weakening this already-fragile aluminum tube. Alex or others, do you have any advice on that?

Why do you think it is fragile? Does it show visible thinning of walls, or excessive corrosion? If so, may be you should spend $20 or 50 and get a new section from local metal shop. Anodizing will cost another $40 approximately, but this isn't crucial. Usually, people attach the cleats by stainless tapping screws. Drill the hole of slightly smaller diameter, and screw it in. Can be done by a regular screwdriver, not necessarily by power tool. I prefer manually, it gives more control. Drilling the first hole is easy. Drilling the second hole is tricky, it is difficult to keep the accuracy when punching and drilling on the curved surface with a hand drill. There are drill presses and add-ons for drilling tubes (I don't have it). I just drill second hole very small, and then widen it by a thin round file, shifting it at the same time in the right direction, if needed. Works every time, and saved me from many mistakes, not only on tubes.

You can put some glue or epoxy or thread-lock or marine sealant in the holes before driving the screws in, but this also isn't crucial. If you the tube looks too weak to you, and you still want to use it, put an insert of smaller diameter inside the mast tube, extending few inches beyond the top and bottom holes. The insert will be held in place by the cleat screws.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 9:35 am 
lord high faltbotmeister

Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:05 am
Posts: 865
Location: atlanta, georgia
Alex,

Thanks for the tips. When I say "fragile" I just mean that this thin-walled aluminum seems to me just barely up to the task of handling the loads. And the location of the cleats is at the highest stress area in the mast (well, probably not actually the highest stress but it is the spot that is least able to flex and distribute load), so I just figured comprising the integrity by drilling holes, even small ones, was risky. I like the idea of a sleeve, don't know if I can find a good fit that matches the ID of the mast, but I will try.

Don- I took a closer look at the pic of the S-4 in this message string and found it interesting that the location of the clip and attachment point for the halyard are reversed from our older rigs. Wonder if the newer design is better and if we could modify the old rig accordingly? I'll post pics when I get back to Atlanta.

I wish you a very happy holiday,

Best,
g


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 3:49 pm 
gbellware wrote:
And the location of the cleats is at the highest stress area in the mast (well, probably not actually the highest stress but it is the spot that is least able to flex and distribute load), so I just figured comprising the integrity by drilling holes, even small ones, was risky. I like the idea of a sleeve, don't know if I can find a good fit that matches the ID of the mast, but I will try.

This mast is 1.3/8" OD, if my memory doesn't fail me. So, with 1/16" walls the ID should be 1/8" less = 1.1/4". This is a popualr size. Mast collar is very close to those cleats, so the stress caused by the cleat holes is minimal. I think, Folbot mast sections (don't remember the length) have the same 1.3/8" OD and they are anodized, and Folbot outrigger has 1.1/4" OD. You may check their website.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 4:14 pm 
lord high faltbotmeister

Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:05 am
Posts: 865
Location: atlanta, georgia
Alex,

Thanks that is really helpful. I will try this same tactic on the other modification I need: I want to control the boom from a line at it's center, not at it's end as is currently the case (so that I can use a traveler and block). So I need to attach an eye to the boom at midpoint. This is another "feature" of the old style rigging that you don't have to contend with. Don't know boom dimensions but will check when I get home.

I really appreciate your advice.

g


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 10:45 pm 
I don't think any of small sail manufacturers have reinforcing sleeves inside the boom, whether they use any midpoint attachments or not. I am not sure about the eye on tapping screws, as it will be subjected to dynamic stress. You better check or ask about these solutions in similar rigs, but sometimes people use a screw with lock-nut. Machine screw with a lock-nut goes all the way through the boom and holds the U-bracket with a small swivel pulley.

The advantage of having a pulley at midpoint (rather than just an eye or U-bracket) is that you can then "jury-rig" it (I think this is how it is called). One end is tied to the block on traveler yoke (and this block doesn't have to travel over the yoke, being fixed in the middle of it), then up and around the midpoint swivel pulley, down and around the traveler pulley, and into your hands. This way you have a double length of rope between the yoke and the midpoint, which results in reduced efforts needed to hold this line. Makes life easier in strong winds, but I am not really familiar with S4 and don't know if this is really necessary with this sail, so at this point I should probably stop jabbering about this, and wish everybody a Merry Christmas :-) ....


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 7:04 pm 
Hi BPDon,

I posted the scanned Klepper S4 rig instructions in the gallery here :
http://foldingkayaks.org/gallery/album135


Then I realised that the neighbour's photo gallery shows probably the type of rig you have : http://foldingkayaks.org/gallery/album130


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 11:17 pm 
Hi Romainpek-

Thank you VERY much for scanning the S-4 instructions.

They answered several questions I had, but since my S-4 is pretty old, it is somewhat different than yours.

One question I still have not resolved- where does the main halyard attach to the gaff boom?

In your scanned instructions, it says that the halyard is attached to the middle of the gaff boom, and then raised up to the level of the block at the top of the mast. Then the hook in the gaff boom is hooked around the mast.

In the comments by Gbellware, he says the main halyard is attached to the bottom of the gaff boom (where the hook that goes around the mast), and the then I guess this pulls the gaff boom up.

Will either way work??

HOW is the halyard attached to the gaff boom? A knot, a hook at the end of the halyard? Some other way??

Yes- the other photo gallery is closer to my rig, but not exactly the same.

Thanks again!!

Don


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 1:43 pm 
lord high faltbotmeister

Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:05 am
Posts: 865
Location: atlanta, georgia
Don,

First of all, my apologies to the administrator, I know this is in the wrong section but I am just following up on the question in this introduction thread, please move it to a more appropriate thread as you wish.

I have taken a bunch of pics of the early AII S2 setup, if you or someone could tell me how to post I would be glad to, but I am having trouble getting pics into the thread.

As to your specific questions: The jib halyard is about 23 feet overall; 7 feet in the jib and another 15 beyond. It is one continuous line, threading through the leading edge of the jib and terminating in a loop that is then secured to the line and clip attaching it to the bow d-ring. The mainsail halyard is attached via a similar loop that hooks over the BOTTOM of the big, permanently attached u-shaped hook at the bottom of the gaff boom. The pics will show you what I am unable to describe.

It really is a very differnt setup from the newer models, and I can see why the improvements were made. The mainsail boom is controlled from the aft end, not from its mid-point. And the gaff boom is hauled from the bottom, not from its mid-point, requiring two sliding carriers for the gaff boom to keep it riding on the mast instead of the one carriert on newer models.

I just bought a traveler from Long Haul and I really want to try it, but I will have to find a way to attach the control line (there is probably a correct name for this, just don't know what it is) to the mid-point on the boom.

Hope this helps,

Best,
g


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 2:18 am 
Hi g-

I would be VERY interested in seeing your photos of the older S-4 sail rig.

I don't know how to get photos on this site, but earlier in this thread there was this from mje:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There is a free photo album on the main foldingkayaks.org site. You can post your photos there and link to them. All you need to do is email me:

Your full name
Preferred email address
preferred account name
preferred password

and I will create an account there for you that other viewers of the site
can browse.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't know how to get quotes to show up in white, so hope this is OK

How is the sheet at the rear of the boom which controls your mainsail attached??

Thank you!!!

Don


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 4:02 am 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 4:47 pm
Posts: 1716
Location: Arlington, VA (i.e. Wash DC)
BPDon wrote:
I don't know how to get quotes to show up in white, so hope this is OK


Good question. Just use the "quote" button in the upper right of every message box.

_________________
Chris T.
~'91 Klepper A2 w/ BSD schooner rig.
'64 Klepper Passat/Tradewind and T12 restoration projects.
Non-folding: Early '90s Old Town Canoe.
Previously owned '04 Pakboat Puffin II and '05 Swift (prototype), as well as an '84 Hobie 16.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 3:34 pm 
lord high faltbotmeister

Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:05 am
Posts: 865
Location: atlanta, georgia
Don, here are the pics of the S2 setup, I hope.
g
main boom control attachment
Image[/img]
mainsail leading edge attachment to main boom
Image
gaff boom, midpoint bracket attachment to mast
Image
Image
hard to make out, but this is the main halyard loop attached to the lower gaff boom hook
Image
Image
Image
"my" river, our backyard on the "hooch"
Image


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