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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 1:25 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:05 pm
Posts: 1379
Location: South Salem, NY
Dang guys!

Tim have you ever heard of pitch poling!? I don't think my sail would be up any longer in the conditions my mind envisions in your last post. Ha. Then again I can't imagine being able to drop the sail in that scenario either... of course I am envisioning a memory that we wouldn't take our kayaks into under sail... but, conditions change. Even in a relatively safe environment I can't imagine having an inverted BSD rig in the water with those waves coming in... I just envision the mast hitting bottom before the rig is righted and... well you get the picture. Gee, I don't sound too defeatist do I, ha.

I've got to go outside right now and make some decisions on what to take with me on vacation... this discussion is not making that any easier.

Greg I remember your Florida sailing journeys and your description of these conditions. I have to agree, there are times when the Klepper rudder is not up to the task at hand. Greg you were working the foot pedals at the same time as the paddle right? Didn't you have a short segment of video from somewhere in there?

d

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Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 2:45 pm 
faltbootemeister

Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2015 4:10 pm
Posts: 138
Well, Dennis, I'm certainly no Water Triber, but I do enjoy a windy day. In May, at the Sails Angels gathering of mostly-BSD sailors, we had quite the harrowing sail one day.

GrnMtns of this forum suggested a trip from the campground on the Virginia side of Pocomoke Sound, across the Sound to the north, and up Pocomoke River to Pocomoke City. I believe nine boats departed, several of them folders. Ann and I were in our Yukons, without spray decks. Without modification the Folbot spray deck is incompatible with a BSD rig. I believe all skippers had sails fully reefed. I take that back. A couple new to our group in a hardshell tandem may have been unable to fully reef.

Wind was blowing 20-25 knots from the S-SW. The tide was coming out of the Pocomoke River, opposing the wind. This created steep waves of 2-3 feet or so. Some people tacked back and forth as we approached the river mouth, sliding down the waves at a diagonal. I mostly went straight on, spilling wind at each trough until my bow emerged from beneath the next wave. Several times I had water over the bow up to the cockpit. Beneath the decks were large flotation bags. I had lowered the sail to just above the crosstube.

A Kruger Seawind skippered by a very experienced sailor went bare-pole. I can't remember if his near-broach came before or after he doused canvas. Another experienced sailor (he owns a kevlar tandem with three Balogh masts and custom amas) in a large-cockpit no-bulkheads plastic boat escaped into a quiet area after a while to bail before continuing. I pumped a few times.

Miraculously, we all survived to the first bend in the river where we found quiet water. Most of us agreed that we should have stayed at the campground. Should one of our group have capsized or gone overboard, assistance would have been most difficult to provide. Continuing on, all boats save one arrived in Pocomoke City for pizza. One skipper dropped out along the river due to fatigue.

I don't know that I would want to do that again, but it sure was thrilling.

BTW, the sailor in the large-cockpit plastic boat was curious about our Yukons, as he travels the country in a Sprinter-type van conversion and was tired of tugging a kayak trailer. I loaned him my Yukon for a sail on Pocomoke Sound. Immediately after the gathering he bought one for himself on Craigslist.

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Ann and me
Folbots: Too many. It's embarrassing.
Feathercraft: Aeronaut
Klepper: AEI - Jonathan Waterman's boat
Hardshells x6


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 1:54 am 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:05 pm
Posts: 1379
Location: South Salem, NY
Wow Tim that's quite an adventure.

So I'm assuming everyone was using the BSD outrigger system in this weather? When you say the one boat went 'bare pole' I assume that means the sail was completely dropped. What do you guys do when you drop the sail like that? Do you wrap it with line, cover it with the bag, just curious. So when the sail is dropped like that it's back to paddling into that weather with the outriggers still out? Man that sounds like a real chore. But as you say, I'm sure it was one for the memory banks.

Must be pretty fun to adventure with a group of folks that are all using the same sail rig. I'll have to keep an eye out for the Sails Angels events. I have yet to have the opportunity to sail with anyone else.

d

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Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:02 am 
faltbootemeister

Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2015 4:10 pm
Posts: 138
Everyone was using BSD rigs with outriggers, though sail size varied. I'm not sure how the others deal with a dropped sail. I swing mine to the foredeck, holding it down with a bungee hooked to the perimeter line. I'll put the sail in the bag first sometimes.

None of us sails without outriggers. When the skipper of the Kruger boat dropped his sail he still had his outriggers installed.

We were headed downwind, so even without sail little paddling would have been required.

The kayak sailing group membership is quite fluid. We are loosely organized and meet four times a year: Cupsuptic Lake Park & Campground ME end of July, Cedar Island NC early October, Flamingo campground Everglades NP end of January (not specifically a sailing event--mixed sailors and paddlers, emphasis on Folbots and other folders), Tall Pines Harbor Campground Sanford VA early May. You can look at Ann's post under Special Events for info on the Flamingo Flotilla. Contact GrnMtns for info on Cupsuptic. For Cedar Island and Tall Pines, send me a PM.

We love to see everyone's modifications. Much equipment discussion takes place. BSD owner David Valverde typically attends Tall Pines and Cedar Island. He and GrnMtns have spare parts and bring demo boats. Both have performed installs and mods on site by prior arrangement. GrnMtns reps for BSD and Longhaul, which can be helpful.

While most attendees use BSD rigs, we see Folbot rigs and hybrids. A couple of skippers use jibs. No Klepper sail rigs, though I would like to see one in action. Same goes for Kayaksailor. We had a couple of beginning sailors at Tall Pines this year. GrnMtns and others, including Ann, have a great deal of kayak sailing experience.

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Ann and me
Folbots: Too many. It's embarrassing.
Feathercraft: Aeronaut
Klepper: AEI - Jonathan Waterman's boat
Hardshells x6


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:46 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:05 pm
Posts: 1379
Location: South Salem, NY
Got it. I missed the downwind aspect in your original story.

I think the BSD is a lot more efficient than the Klepper rig, but man is it tall. I have a 36 HP and have never really had it out on open waters. So I've only used it with the outriggers once I think. Yes, I've gone over many times.

Have you ever seen a BSD rig flip over? What happens? I know that without outriggers the BSD mast floats and will keep the boat from going turtle. I think the Klepper mast takes on water when it capsizes, and then pulls the boat over into the inverted position. I'm thinking I'd like to spray some foam into the mast sections and see if that corrects this unfortunate action. Any ideas on how this might be done? But I'm meandering... I am really curious what happens when a BSD rig goes over.

d

_________________
Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:22 pm 
faltbootemeister

Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2015 4:10 pm
Posts: 138
I do not recall seeing a Balogh rigged boat capsize. I know I have seen a video demonstrating how to right a capsized GII with a Balogh rig. When I was looking for it just now I came across a video entitled "Capsize This" featuring one Dennis Lee.

Since I have buried an ama several times in strong wind I'm convinced that a capsize could happen. If the aka breaks surely the boat would capsize. Which is why I had David Valverde of BSD double the akas and crosstube, his idea not mine. He inserted a smaller diameter tube into the existing crosstube, and shorter lengths of tubing inside the ends of the akas near the crosstube interface. He claims that the aka-crosstube joint is a common break point under extreme conditions.

The burying ama stresses the aka and crosstube. It limits my ability to sail close hauled in strong wind. I would like a larger ama with more buoyancy.

_________________
Ann and me
Folbots: Too many. It's embarrassing.
Feathercraft: Aeronaut
Klepper: AEI - Jonathan Waterman's boat
Hardshells x6


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 11:29 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:05 pm
Posts: 1379
Location: South Salem, NY
RangerTim wrote:
The burying ama stresses the aka and crosstube. It limits my ability to sail close hauled in strong wind. I would like a larger ama with more buoyancy.


I thought about this a little and I'm not sure this is the correct approach. I'm sure it will work to a point, but you are really demanding a lot from your gear in these situations. Even if you beef up the amas and aka, how much can the coaming on your boat take?

To me, the better solution is to raise the aka and amas so that the boat can actually be sailed aggressively and counter balanced by the crews weight. The boat becomes far more stable at speed than it is at rest. Maintaining a counter balance to the wind in the sail is very easy and really quite comfortable providing you have a comfortable way to sit on the edge of the coaming and gunnel (gunwale) of your boat.

An elevated aka/ama would allow this to be done very easily and if catastrophe strikes the ama drops to save the day. Almost all capsizes are a result of a sudden change in the current situation. With experience we get a sense of when this 'might' occur. With a little foresight the skipper can be ready to drop the wind from the sail when a sudden gust hits or stalls. It's often hard to catch this quick enough to save a capsize from occurring if you do not have outriggers. But, with an elevated outrigger you have an extra few moments when the ama hits the water to let the sheets fly and drop that wind. This is of course theory on my part but I'm fairly confident it would work... mainly from seeing what you guys demand of these outriggers on a regular basis.

The real beauty is that practically all the stress would be alleviated from your rig sailing this way, and frankly I think it's more fun.

I'd love to do some cutting on my BSD aka and try some things but it's just too expensive if I make a mistake. I'm half heartedly looking for a wood dowel that will fit the amas so I can experiment a little with an adjustable system, but who's got the time?

David has a great product here, but it disappoints me a little that there isn't any advancement happening with the gear... like creating and adjustable angled aka, or adding a jib system to what we already have - I'd love that. The BSD mast, since it has no stays, is actually the perfect platform for a Bermuda type sail that could be reefed by rolling it up on the mast. How perfect would that be? You could literally roll it up to nothing...

Anyway, I strongly suggest you take your GII out on a nice lake and give her a sail without the outriggers just to get a sense of how simple the counter leaning is. You'll move faster with less effort and experience zero stress on the rig compared to dragging those amas through the water. Then maybe we can put our heads together with David and come up with an adjustable aka system for BSD. That would be heaven.

If you decide to give it a try give me a shout and I'll suggest a couple things that may help stave off a capsize. ha.

d

_________________
Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 12:21 am 
faltbootemeister

Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2015 4:10 pm
Posts: 138
One day on warm water I'll give ama-less sailing a try.

I have seen a canoe sailing video where the akas were of laminate wood. At the point analogous to where the Balogh aka attaches to the crosstube, the wood sweeps up. Thus the boat heels some before the ama touches water. I have mentioned this to David. He believes that would be too difficult to engineer.

I do not blame him a bit for not wanting to put time, effort, and money into R&D. What with the number of kayak shops and manufacturers that have disappeared or repurposed over the years, I'm thrilled that he is still in business.

_________________
Ann and me
Folbots: Too many. It's embarrassing.
Feathercraft: Aeronaut
Klepper: AEI - Jonathan Waterman's boat
Hardshells x6


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 4:12 pm 
knight of the folding kayak realm

Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 6:42 pm
Posts: 418
You likely both already know this (if so, apologies for posting, but perhaps it will be helpful to others), but what you are both describing is essentially like the Solway Dory mini-outrigger system, much used by British Open Canoe Sailors. Have a look at http://www.solwaydory.co.uk/products/sa ... utriggers/
Or the ocsg.org.uk site or their facebook page here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/152444938788/?fref=nf
Of course, these aren't the sorts of things you want to be paying for shipping across the Atlantic, but Dave Stubbs of Solway Dory is a real enthusiast and a very helpful fellow and would surely give you necessary dimensions/details if you wanted to have a go at making your own.

I have just acquired second hand what I think is odds and ends of the Careen sailing system. Or perhaps the outriggers are Careen and the sail is Klepper. I seem to be missing the crucial part for mounting the outriggers, though it may reappear in the house I acquired it from as we gradually clear it. The sail area looks rather large for sailing without outriggers, but I'm nevertheless having a go at adapting the mast step on the Klepper Aeirus II (Classic) to receive the mast. The current hole is square, but the mast I've acquired is a tear drop shape and a few mm too long to fit in the square hole. I'll try and post some photos if I succeed in getting it set up.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 4:53 pm 
faltbootemeister

Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2015 4:10 pm
Posts: 138
Yes, idc, Solway Dory is what I had seen. Now, if I could get something like that in a three piece beam and inflatable amas I'll be happy. The Solway system as it is would be too bulky for the available space in my vehicle.

_________________
Ann and me
Folbots: Too many. It's embarrassing.
Feathercraft: Aeronaut
Klepper: AEI - Jonathan Waterman's boat
Hardshells x6


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 11:38 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:05 pm
Posts: 1379
Location: South Salem, NY
True true true Tim. You're right, it's too much to expect David to put much more into this... unfortunately.

Ian thanks for those links, that's exactly what I was thinking of. That Careen stuff looks pretty nice. You may find some tips and insight about what you have by carefully scouring their website. There are a lot of interesting pictures or new and older gear on their website. I always liked the way they attached the amas to the paddles in one of the early iterations. Such a simple solution.

Did Careen go out of business? I can't find their website anymore. All Careen images lead back to the Klepper site.

d

_________________
Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP


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