Folding Kayaks Forum

The user forum for FoldingKayaks.org
It is currently Tue Jan 22, 2019 7:43 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 25 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: BSD transfer
PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 4:50 am 
recent arrival

Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2018 4:41 am
Posts: 1
I have a bsd sail and boss system (and cross thwart, mast partner) for a folbot G2. How well will it transfer to a klepper aerius 1?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: BSD transfer
PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 9:54 pm 
Site Admin

Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 12:34 pm
Posts: 1759
Location: Southeast Michigan
Best thing is to contact BSD.

_________________
Michael Edelman
FoldingKayaks.org Webmaster


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: BSD transfer
PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:21 am 
lord high faltbotmeister

Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:05 am
Posts: 832
Location: atlanta, georgia
The transfer can be very complicated, imo, and you would do well to contact Jon Sairs at sailyourkayak.com to get some advice. There are subtle issues, e.g. where the cross tube (aka) needs to be drilled and how old the rig is...newer BSD is much better/reinforced.
And you should also be aware that no matter how you attach the rig there are some issues with BSD and the Klepper A1. The mast is a great fit after the Klepper hole is widened a bit (easy with a file) as long as the mast foot on the BSD is the correct shape for your Klepper. The real challenge is that the combing on the A1 is so high that no matter where you mount the cross tube the amas will sit too high off the water and allow your kayak to lean too much when under sail. I built around this but my solution was very time consuming and complicated, although it works great. Would be happy to get into specifics but would suggest you speak with Jon to get his thoughts first.

Best,
g

_________________
"There is nothing--absolutely nothing--half so much worth doing as simply messing around in boats"

1990 A1 Expedition
2010 carbon Klepper Quattro
BSD sail rig, 24' mizzen + 36' main
36' jib
Torqeedo outboard
1938 Sachs-Fichtel seitenbordmotor


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: BSD transfer
PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 5:09 pm 
forum fanatic

Joined: Thu May 05, 2016 10:27 pm
Posts: 79
Location: Northern Vermont,USA
What Greg said!
You do need a new BSD cross tube built just for the A1 no matter what the vintage otherwise it will bend as the inner reinforcement is located in the wrong place for such a narrow cockpit and even after one or two sails it will start to bend.

_________________
Best,
Jon

Folbot Greenland II
Pionier 520 Z
Klepper A 1


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: BSD transfer
PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 10:55 pm 
faltbootemeister

Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:08 pm
Posts: 134
I haven't tried it with a folder, but I sail a lightweight double paddle canoe without amas. The boat is 15' long, 28" wide, weighs about 40#. I use a BSD classic rig in it, some wet sand in bags for ballast, caution and agility to keep her upright. Sometimes she ships water over the rail, I heave to and bail. Good luck with yours.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: BSD transfer
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 11:31 am 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:05 pm
Posts: 1406
Location: South Salem, NY
This from Mark at LongHaul:

https://www.dennisleephotography.com/Dennis-Lee-Photograph/Boats/Klepper/n-p9swW/i-Pd3LWcG/A

Which I think works great but it takes up a fair amount of space in the cockpit if you like to move around a bit like I do.

It does however bring up an interesting point that Greg alluded to above; the height of the outrigger. (hola Greg!) Perhaps something worthy of discussion in a broader sense pertaining to the dynamics of kayak sailing?

Are you guys (who have a lot of open water sailing experience) finding that when using the BSD rig, or perhaps any outrigger system, you don't want the boat to lean at all?

d

_________________
Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: BSD transfer
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 7:02 pm 
lord high faltbotmeister

Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:05 am
Posts: 832
Location: atlanta, georgia
Dennis,

Hope all is well! That control board and aka support for the longhaul looks really sweet.

And yes, I really prefer, as do many of the kayak sailors I have met, to sail with as little heeling as possible. Best to have the ama rest just barely above the surface of the water when the boat is fully loaded. For me, there are lots of advantages to this... with limited heeling the sail is in its most efficient shape and attitude; the rudder maintains a full bite in the water; and it is just plain more comfortable to sail when sitting straight as opposed to trying to compensate for a radical leaning position. Finally, when you are really moving along, the ama works best when it sits flat on the water: radical heeling tends to make the ama roll under from its outboard edge, and that gets really inefficient...not to mention scary. I can vouch for that!

Anyway, there are any number of ways to have fun with these rigs, and they are all good, imo. I will post a pic of the modified aka I used that compensates for the high combing on my Kleppers.

Really getting excited about spending some time sailing in the Everglades this winter!

g

_________________
"There is nothing--absolutely nothing--half so much worth doing as simply messing around in boats"

1990 A1 Expedition
2010 carbon Klepper Quattro
BSD sail rig, 24' mizzen + 36' main
36' jib
Torqeedo outboard
1938 Sachs-Fichtel seitenbordmotor


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: BSD transfer
PostPosted: Tue Dec 25, 2018 11:52 am 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:05 pm
Posts: 1406
Location: South Salem, NY
Merry Christmas Greg! Merry Christmas everyone!

That all makes excellent sense Greg. Definitely food for thought. I'm finding the idea of sailing the AII a lot more enticing than sailing the MK1 of late. Mainly for the extra space, but the stability of the platform doesn't hurt either. It's that time of year here when the waters of Long Island Sound are clear of the insane powerboats and the dry suit is calling. It's definitely cold, but traditionally January is a good time for me to get out (on many levels).

See if you can post of pic of your rig, I don't have a mounting system for my AII yet other than the MK1 mount from Mark. Which works but only has two mounting points (because of the different coaming arc) for now. Pulling the router out and attacking a beautifully (water) sealed board has been a challenge, ha.

When do you depart on your annual adventure?

Cheers to all! Happy sailing!

d

_________________
Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: BSD transfer
PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2018 4:55 pm 
lord high faltbotmeister

Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:05 am
Posts: 832
Location: atlanta, georgia
Greetings and Merry Christmas!

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1uqJl7 ... J8X5aFCKU1

Really looking forward to spending some time in Florida with the group at Flamingo and also some time in the backcountry, trip is planned for last two weeks of January.

Here is the way I rigged my A1 with the "lowered" aka. The pics also show the furling jib. And I use the same setup for my A2 with two mains and the jib. You may notice on the control board that there is another mast hole and 4 additional holes for the combing brackets that fit the A2.

The whole thing is pretty heavy but it really does need to be as beefy as it is in order to take and distribute the forces that the amas and the relatively large amount of sail puts on the kayak, especially on the combing. Not shown are the pair of mast stay cables that run from the top of the main mast to the ends of the akas. The stays help distribute load along with a pair of lashing straps that go on the underside of the aka to the d-rings that Klepper uses the attach to brackets sewn inside the deck which are hooked to the gunnel. Clear as mud, right?

As a friend in the sailing group remarked..."what are you rigging there, a sail or a big top?!". Hah!

Hope you can open the pics, hope to see you on the water.

Happy New Year,
g

_________________
"There is nothing--absolutely nothing--half so much worth doing as simply messing around in boats"

1990 A1 Expedition
2010 carbon Klepper Quattro
BSD sail rig, 24' mizzen + 36' main
36' jib
Torqeedo outboard
1938 Sachs-Fichtel seitenbordmotor


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: BSD transfer
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2018 6:43 am 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:40 pm
Posts: 1127
Location: isles of scilly UK
Looks great obviously done by someone who knows what he is doing. It makes me wonder if my Russian outriggers clamped only to the coaming are OK. So far it has been but if ?.


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: BSD transfer
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2018 4:59 pm 
lord high faltbotmeister

Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:05 am
Posts: 832
Location: atlanta, georgia
John,

I would not worry at all about the sturdiness of your rig, as long as the akas are built for your Klepper...BSD is careful about reinforcing them at just the right points to make them safe. And with your 2 akas you are distributing the force along a good length of the combing, so you look all good to me.

That said, I am running 74 ft2 of sail with the jib and main, and almost 100 ft2 with the second BSD mast and sail. On my single Klepper I absolutely need the support of a very solid platform that creates a stable support for both the main mast and the aka.

The forces are pretty significant. I don't know how to measure them, but I know a very experienced sailor who ripped the mast step from the bottom of her hardshell, and I have seen a couple of bent akas too. And I bent a mast...oh, wait, that involved a low-hanging tree branch and my boat was on the trailer. Never mind.

g

_________________
"There is nothing--absolutely nothing--half so much worth doing as simply messing around in boats"

1990 A1 Expedition
2010 carbon Klepper Quattro
BSD sail rig, 24' mizzen + 36' main
36' jib
Torqeedo outboard
1938 Sachs-Fichtel seitenbordmotor


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: BSD transfer
PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2018 8:37 am 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:40 pm
Posts: 1127
Location: isles of scilly UK
Thank you for clearing things up. In fact since leaving Canada and coming to these small islands I havn,t used a folder, I have three. The kayak I have been using is my Triak. Although this year I have not been on the sea, I fell and broke the bone that covers the hip joint and an arm, now things are pretty good and I am trying to get over limping. Many people have shown interest in the Triak and when I start assembling a Klepper I am sure I will attract a small crowd. A fair number of hardshell sea kayakers come over for their holidays (no folders) and they mostly put their kayaks on the ferry. A very small number paddle across the 30 miles or so but it,s not recommended except for very experienced sea kayakers, more paddle back to mainland England going with the wind and flow of the sea, but still I wouldn,t recommend the trip. Going between most of the islands is fine and it would be high on my list of places to kayak in the UK, rarely too hot or too cold, it can be cool at night if camping, the sea can be calm.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: BSD transfer
PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 9:39 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:05 pm
Posts: 1406
Location: South Salem, NY
Hi John!

Happy New Year Guys!

Greg... I'm still working on getting my jaw off the ground, lol. Wow, what a rig! Beautiful man, absolutely beautiful.

I only have about 500 questions for you... ha, but I'll start with four.

What are those chrome bulbs you are using to hold the aka mounts?

Did you make that plywood yourself and how many layers?

Why the zig zag back to the aka support cable with the jib sheets? Is seems the line is pretty close to what you would get going straight to the control board.

How long does it take you to rig that? hahaha. Man, I thought I was bad.

It's great to see you're sailing that A1! Really great.

I'm going to try and find that jib.

Really awesome Greg. I am pretty envious.

d

_________________
Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: BSD transfer
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 11:39 am 
lord high faltbotmeister

Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:05 am
Posts: 832
Location: atlanta, georgia
OK, here are a few thoughts and details...

What are those chrome bulbs you are using to hold the aka mounts?

They are repurposed "wake board tower brackets" used for power boats. Made of billet aluminum, highly polished, with rubber collar. Very high quality and strength.

Did you make that plywood yourself and how many layers?

Two layers of 3/4" birch ply, glued and screwed, 5 coats of urethane. Not as good as marine, but this is just a prototype, as is everything I have ever fabricated. Hah! And no, one layer of 3/4" ply was not stiff enough, I tried it.

Why the zig zag back to the aka support cable with the jib sheets? Is seems the line is pretty close to what you would get going straight to the control board.

Nope, not close enough. The jib is a class sail from a boat called a CFJ. The sail is inexpensive but high quality from Intensity Sails. And the geometry really matters in order to get the sheet block in exactly the right position relative to the center of the boat and the distance from the mast. The exact position gives me the correct sail bend and the optimal slot between the main and the jib. I am not a real sailor and know nothing about sail design, but I know people who are and do and they tell me that precision counts here. The setup I fabricated is an exact copy of the geometry of the CFJ and, what do you know, it works!

How long does it take you to rig that? hahaha. Man, I thought I was bad.

It is really not bad. The hardest part is getting the mast up with the 4 lines (main and jib hauls and the two mast stays) without tangle or drama. Everything else just clips together. But seriously, when I put it together for the first time with a couple of interested onlookers I got the suggestion to rename my boat (Red Draggin') to Big Top, as in "what a circus!"

It's great to see you're sailing that A1! Really great.

It is my favorite boat. The A2 can't be beat for luxury camping and safe navigating in almost any condition, but the A1 is more fun than I could have expected, especially with the jib. And if you will recall I have you to thank for finding me that boat, which I really appreciate!


Hope to see you out there on the water,

g

_________________
"There is nothing--absolutely nothing--half so much worth doing as simply messing around in boats"

1990 A1 Expedition
2010 carbon Klepper Quattro
BSD sail rig, 24' mizzen + 36' main
36' jib
Torqeedo outboard
1938 Sachs-Fichtel seitenbordmotor


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: BSD transfer
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:45 am 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:05 pm
Posts: 1406
Location: South Salem, NY
Good stuff man, thanks!

d

_________________
Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 25 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group