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PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 10:55 am 
What is the best solo kayak for setting up the sail and outriggers while on the water? I have a BSD sail and outriggers. In the Great Lakes, where I live, often the wind is feast or famine. The ability to paddle when in there is no wind and the set up a sail when wind picks up would be helpful.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 11:37 am 
faltbootemeister
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Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2009 11:41 am
Posts: 108
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
my bet would be on a sit on top kayak, or
possibly a klepper 2 seater, or something similar.
I.e; A very stable kayak where you can move around
bow to stern easily.

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Kayak: Nautiraid Narak '11
Kayak sail rig: Kuvia Kayaksailor 1.6 '10
Sailboat: StorTriss MKII, 17.5 Feet, '75
Blog: jarladventures.blogspot.com


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 9:06 pm 
KeyMeKoe wrote:
What is the best solo kayak for setting up the sail and outriggers while on the water? I have a BSD sail and outriggers. In the Great Lakes, where I live, often the wind is feast or famine. The ability to paddle when in there is no wind and the set up a sail when wind picks up would be helpful.

In Baja where I sailed/paddled, wind behaves same way as in Great Lakes, and even worse - it is very unpredictable feast or famine. Suddenly comes and disappears. In a nutshell - forget the whole thing. You will have to decide every time in the morning, whether it will be a "sailing day" (and then install sail and outriggers) or a "paddling day" (and leave sail gear home). In more details:

1) In a short daytrip or weekend overnight, you'll be better off in a narrow single kayak and small downwind sail, no outriggers. Without big sail and outriggers you have a perfect ability to paddle when there is no wind. Also, without big sail and outriggers you can paddle slowly against the wind (this is easier to do without outrigger). Upwind sail won't let you sail at 0 degrees to the wind - at the very best it will be slow progress at 60 degrees, because kayaks are not efficient sail boats. Any big upwind sail with outriggers will be a pain to install on water. In a wide boat it is easier to install, but a big wide boat is a pain to paddle even without outriggers, not to mention - with them. Outriggers reduce your paddling efficiency by 25-30%.

2) In a long multiday trip with plenty of time to make it from point A to point B (or return to A again) I would just keep the outriggers at all times, paddling slowly when there is no wind, or making long upwind tacks and sometimes changing the scheduled day's destination completely, camping where the wind wants to take me to, on that particular day. You don't control the wind - but it has a lot of control over you. The ability to paddle with outrigger is still important, but you will have some paddling ability in any kayak with outriggers (using canoe paddle in some cases), and with plenty of time you have plenty of choice (like changing the plans as above). Generally, the better sailing equipment you have, the poorer becomes your paddling - less room for paddle strokes and more interference with sailing gear.

The bottom line is - big upwind sail on a boat without a motor is NOT the best tool to make it from A to B on a tight schedule.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 6:53 am 
knight of the folding kayak realm

Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:05 am
Posts: 480
Location: atlanta, georgia
http://www.kayaksailor.com/

Here is an alternative to consider. It is fairly new so there are limited reviews but what there are are all positive. This rig does not use outriggers: the makers claim that the low center of effort combined with the design of the head of the sail make it stable enough without them. There is another string in the sailing section of this board with a post from a guy from Sweden that can give you more info.

g

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"There is nothing--absolutely nothing--half so much worth doing as simply messing around in boats"

2007 FC Big Kahuna
2010 Klepper Quattro
Kuvia sail rig
1969 AEII, S2 rig
1938 Sachs-Fichtel seitenbordmotor


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 4:00 pm 
gbellware wrote:
http://www.kayaksailor.com/
Here is an alternative to consider. It is fairly new so there are limited reviews but what there are are all positive. This rig does not use outriggers: the makers claim that the low center of effort combined with the design of the head of the sail make it stable enough without them.

On a multiday trip I wouldn't trust my equipment and food to any upwind rig without an outrigger, especially on narrow kayaks like the video shows. Folders, even wider than those shown (like FC K1) are more stabile but they have other problem - no bulkheads to minimize water intake when you capsize. Lower CE makes this sail more stabile, and yet, not nearly as stabile as with outrigger. Wind gust or sailor's distraction - and over you go. Upwind sailing presents higher risk of capsize than downwind sailing (it's not about actual rig, it's about direction of wind, waves and tilting momentum), it's wetter than downwind, tiresome on long passages without outrigger and proper steering controls. Aussies are using similar design on narrow kayaks and are doing quite serious long trips (smaller and simpler hinged sail, without a leeboard, strictly downwind design, which makes more sense to me).

So... if you remove a leeboard from this rig and limit yourself to downwind sailing (paddling instead, if wind isn't agreeable), and make it smaller (you don't need a big sail for downwind sailing) - it will become something like those rigs by Aussies or Pacific Action ;-) ...


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 7:25 am 
faltbootemeister
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Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2009 11:41 am
Posts: 108
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
My opinion is different than Alm's, but I haven't tried the BSD rig, and I've just owned the kayaksailor rig for a while.

After my initial trial runs and camping trip, I am not hesitant what so ever to head out with the kayaksailor rig for multiday trips in any conditions good enough to paddle without a sail. As it can be dropped in seconds at any time, and be reefed as well (reefed-from shore only) and then allows for unrestricted paddling. (Yes, I covered 35km one day w/o the sail up and it worked fine) I don't see the problem really. Haven't been really close to capsize, and if I do, I won't be worried. No bulkheads on FC's, true, but what about the seasock? And I assume everyone kayaking a folder are using waterproof pack sacks as well. It's not performing like a proper sailing boat of course, but it goes upwind (fairly slow), sidewind, downwind.

I haven't sailed any multihull boats, but several small dinghys such as Optimist, Mirror, Lazor and a "mini 12" (called 2.4 nowdays?). To me, a boat under sail that leans hard and requires some attention is a normal thing, nothing to be worried about. It's part of the fun, and why I like to sail. And a kayak without sail is capable of covering huge distances, if the kayaker is fit enough. So a sailing rig is optional and not a must for long-distance touring.

Since the OP KeyMeKoe mentioned that he already has the BSD sail and outriggers, I just commented/guessed on his question, but perhaps that rig is too complex and static for setting up and removal while underway, even on a very stable SOT or folder with big cockpit, I'm sure Alm know's most about this.

_________________
Kayak: Nautiraid Narak '11
Kayak sail rig: Kuvia Kayaksailor 1.6 '10
Sailboat: StorTriss MKII, 17.5 Feet, '75
Blog: jarladventures.blogspot.com


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 3:31 pm 
Quote:
I haven't sailed any multihull boats, but several small dinghys such as Optimist, Mirror, Lazor and a "mini 12" (called 2.4 nowdays?). To me, a boat under sail that leans hard and requires some attention is a normal thing, nothing to be worried about. It's part of the fun...

Yes, but in a single kayak you can't "hike out" to counter-balance the leeward tilt. You can try and lean somewhat, in your seat, but this is both uncomfortable and not very efficient. In a bigger boat like AEII or GII it is possible to use a "hiking board", but then, a bigger boat is a pain to paddle when wind dies. KeyMeKoe has a GII, I think.

Quote:
And a kayak without sail is capable of covering huge distances, if the kayaker is fit enough. So a sailing rig is optional and not a must for long-distance touring.

Yes. Upwind sail rig, and especially one with outriggers, is not a must for long trips. It is easier to maintain tight schedule without having to rely on wind. Upwind sail rig with outriggers will eventually save efforts in long trip, and will make the trip more relaxed, but one can't rely on it if trip schedule is tight (like your return flight is on a certain date or you need to make it back to your car before dark).

Funny thing is that downwind rig without outriggers will also save about the same amount of efforts - you'll have to paddle more often (downwind rig can't handle side wind), but the paddling will be easier than with outriggers. One major difference is that you won't be able to relax as much as with outriggers. With an upwind rig without outriggers there is even less relaxing (more fun, more thrill, but less relaxing), and sooner or later such a sailor will flip over. May be not very soon if he is careful, but it will happen eventually ;-) ...

Quote:
perhaps that [BSD] rig is too complex and static for setting up and removal while underway, even on a very stable SOT or folder with big cockpit

Yes. Mark Balogh (the inventor), of course, claims that it is not too complex for setting up on water, but I disagree with him, and I'm not the only one. Even when stability isn't a problem (like in GII or AEII), there is time and efforts. Those who have BSD know how many parts is there, and all those parts need to be stored under deck when not in use (there is no room to keep this all on deck), and it is a pain to retrieve it from under decks while under way. Putting it on and off takes 20-30 minutes each time, and if wind dies again after you've just put the sail on and you need to take it off again, you feel like an idiot, because all you achieved was a waste of time.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 7:19 pm 
I NEVER go for a paddle without my trusty "downwind" umbrella "sail"!
It is easy to deploy, easy to fold up, and can be stuffed up under my foredeck for storage.
No extra parts required, and I've clocked my GII (GPS) at 12.4Km per hour, powered by only the umbrella, in a "stiff" :lol: breeze.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 1:39 pm 
Red wrote:
... I've clocked my GII (GPS) at 12.4Km per hour, powered by only the umbrella, in a "stiff" :lol: breeze.

Rules of Watertribe Challenge (paddling marathon in Florida) allow small downwind sail up to 11 sq.ft in "kayak" class (there is also a "sailboat class", with larger sails etc). And guess what - many people in "kayak" class carry a downwind sail, because this allow them saving efforts while sailing (or paddle and sail at the same time, either saving efforts or going faster), without limiting normal paddling ability. I prefer to arrive much later but to make it more relaxed, therefore - BSD with outrigger. My time with BSD and outrigger would've been 4 or 6 times slower than their time with downwind sails, but I wouldn't even compare myself to those guys - it's a lot of sweat, paddling many hours a day, they don't relax and sleep very little.

12.4 km/hr = 6.5 knots. This is quite impressive. Not because it is an umbrella (size is the only thing that matters here, fancy professional design just makes downwind sail more comfortable). But because this is GII. Getting this boat to such a speed isn't easy. Perhaps there was some current going your way too ;-)


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 14, 2010 10:25 am 
Alex: No current, but as I said, a STIFF breeze, on Gosling Lake on V.I. near Campbell River.
My wife and I were surfing down the face of ~1.5 ft waves and actually passing them by a small margin. The wind was perfectly lined up with the length of the lake (about 3 Km long) My wife was hooting and hollering like a rodeo star! Great Fun!
BTW, the umbrella in question, is a 25+ year old "Snap-on Racing" beach umbrella that's getting somewhat tattered. It's 65" across and provides some serious push under the right wind conditions...YEEE-HAAAW! :D


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 14, 2010 5:24 pm 
Red wrote:
It's 65" across and provides some serious push under the right wind conditions...YEEE-HAAAW! :D

I think I know what you mean by right conditions. With waves not too high and aligned perfectly with the boat, and with properly balanced boat (or properly loaded, or, should I say - unloaded enough) you can really surf waves sometimes. Didn't happen too often to me in open waters with boat loaded heavily and waves coming from all directions - even with renown 32 sq.ft BSD sail on K1 it was rarely over 7 knots. With a lot of cargo in bow and stern (especially - in bow) it quickly becomes "overpowered", resulting in nose-diving, which prevents it from going faster.

65" diameter is a lot of sail, btw - 23 sq.ft or 2 sq. meters. The boat like GII could really benefit more from some good low-CE downwind sail, easily raised and lowered, used without outriggers, than from a larger BSD with outriggers. But I don't know any such downwind sail. PA is good, but it's CE is high, it's an "upside down" shape of sail.

One thing that makes me keep outriggers on K1 at all times in a long solo trip, is the eternal question "what if"?... I can't forget the incident with John Watherman in AEII with a small 24 sq.ft BSD sail (this is considered small for upwind sail) and no outriggers, described in Arctic Crossing. He knew that if he would capsize in cold water it won't be long before his limbs lock and he drowns. So he sailed without outrigger only when wind was low, and always stayed within 100 meters from shore. When rounding some point, a gust of wind hit him, and down he went. Few minutes later his legs locked and he was preparing to meet his God, but at that moment his feet touched the bottom and he managed to wade/crawl ashore. After that, he promised to himself to always use outriggers (he had them in the boat), no matter how slow the progress was.

It should be noted that BSD is a high-aspect sail (high CE), and John didn't say whether he was on an upwind course (which is more dangerous than downwind).


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 5:44 am 
Alm wrote:
John didn't say whether he was on an upwind course (which is more dangerous than downwind).


Until you broach! :lol:

I have a big downwind sail for my GII (have never used it, though :oops: ) and the old gaff rig for my Klepper.

I don't use outriggers.

I did a 100km multi-day trip with the Klepper and the sail rig saved our asses - my girl and I were not very fit and the rest of the party were all "hardcore" paddlers in Prijon kayaks. The rig allowed us to at least make decent time and, on occasion, get to the overnight spots first.

Setting the up the rig under way is fairly simple but time consuming, and you wouldn't want to be doing it alone.

When we do our next big lake trip, though, we will take just the jib (it's a proper dinghy jib so it has some ooomph) and a single leeboard. I find the Klepper handles really well on a jib alone and the rig is easy to deploy and stash out on the water. We keep the mast stepped which doesn't do a lot for the boat's aesthetics, but, hey, speed trumps looks any time when you've been paddling all day.

My girl handles the course, I sit in front and manage the sail. With less rig we can also relax a bit and enjoy the journey which wasn't really the case in a big blow with the full gaff rig: I got real tense on that long trip: steep, rocky shores, water temp 13 degrees C, and no-one - and I mean no-one - for miles around.

Anyway, summer's most definitely in the air here. Our jasmine tree has blossomed and the resident weaver bird is building his third nest already. The boats are calling!

cheers,

PK


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 2:55 pm 
Quote:
Setting the up the [Klepper upwind] rig under way is fairly simple but time consuming, and you wouldn't want to be doing it alone.

When we do our next big lake trip, though, we will take just the jib (it's a proper dinghy jib so it has some ooomph) and a single leeboard. I find the Klepper handles really well on a jib alone and the rig is easy to deploy and stash out on the water. We keep the mast stepped which doesn't do a lot for the boat's aesthetics, but, hey, speed trumps looks any time

All good points.

While BSD rig can be set up alone, it is still time consuming.

Leaving only jib on AEII was exactly what another guy did after much experimenting. Though, he also has a small motor to return back to where he sailed from, and I think - one-sided home-made outrigger. Anyway, he concluded that jib alone is enough sail for AEII with 2 people. I wonder how jib compares in capsizing potential to a mainsail with boom, like Bermuda or Klepper's gaffl. Should be more stable than mainsail (no boom = no tilting lever), and its size is relatively small (don't remember - 1.5 sq. meters)?


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 2:49 pm 
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Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2005 10:45 am
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Location: Beaumont, Alberta, Canada
I think I'll put in my two cents worth here, too. I have a Feathercraft K1 with BSD Sport 32/BOSS and I heartily agree with Alm. I would NEVER consider sailing my Feathercraft K1 without the outriggers! I have a friend who tried sailing his Feathercraft Klondike without outriggers, and he promptly flipped. As for umbrella sailing, I too have had great success with my large, golf-style umbrella with a small window sewn in it. Very compact, and can be grabbed at a moments notice when favorable winds appear (I use this for long river journeys where shallow depths preclude the Balogh rig's leeboard). For long open-water journeys, my Balogh sail rig is stowed (mostly) under deck and is easily rigged (on shore) if the weather and winds become favorable. The suggestion of rigging "on the water" begs the question: How long a crossing are you doing? If a shoreline is within a few minutes paddle, why not go ashore and set up the sail rig? That is what I do. My old-style Feathercraft K1 holds the mast, rigging, and aka's and ama's in the hull bottom, with just the crosstube and leeboard and (tightly rolled) sail above deck. Again, I agree with Alm that getting all this stuff out is quite an operation, and is best done on shore, or at least standing in shallow water. But if the winds become favorable, it is a worthwhile effort.
Andrew Klinzmann


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 8:32 pm 
I agree with most of the analysis that has gone on here. I have found this discussion very useful. I have noticed that a yacht generally motors out of the harbor before it sets up its sails. And drops its sail and before it motors back into the harbor. I was thinking that if I could paddle out the harbor or away from shore and then setup my sail and then drop my sail and and paddle back into the harbor, it would be very convenient.

I have a CLC Cape Charles 17, predecessor to the Chesapeake 17. When I set up the sail and outriggers onshore often I have to hold onto the boat while it is sailing away and I am struggling to get into the cockpit. Hoping the boat doesn’t sail into a rock, dock or another boat. I know you will say just point the boat into the wind and that won’t happen, but often times if you point the boat into the wind getting out of the wind with outriggers and docks and rocks and boats can be a challenge. Then when landing in wind, I drop the sail, it falls in the water, again I am struggling to get out of the boat, I fall in the water have to drag the whole mess to the shore. If I am paddling and want to set up the sail rig finding a suitable landing is not always that easy, to quote the sage, “A good beach is hard to find.”

I have done several long crossings, I have crossed from Leamington to Pelee Island in Lake Erie several times. Last week I crossed from St. Ignace to Mackinac Island, actually a short crossing, but with the ferry boats going crazy all around it makes it too exciting.

The only thing I have found convenient is a two person setup with my G2. We would paddle out usually with the outriggers already set and the set up the sail in deeper water. When there is no wind, we would paddle until there was wind and we may set up the whole business at sea. Unfortunately, I had a disagreement with my bowman a couple of years back and have not used by G2 since then. I also sea kayak, paddle, and whitewater paddle, so sailing has not been a big priority, but I want to make it a much bigger priority in my life.

I was particularly interested in whether a Kruger Sea Wind or an AE1 sets up easily at sea with BSD. I heard no opinion on the Kruger and a negative on the AE1. I agree with the consensus (MoeJoe dissenting) that SINKs without outriggers lead to trouble. But I found MoeJoe’s idea of a sit-on-top with a Kuvia rig to be particularly intriguing.


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