Lee board proposition

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DLee
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Re: Lee board proposition

Post by DLee »

I'm back... and to make a long story short, it's too expensive to have leeboards shaped by the router machine.

The CNC machine runs at a cost of $220/hr. Dave, the owner of the shop told me that for the time it took the machine to cut six 48" lee boards with taper, the cost would be more than the six feet of cabinets I'm having made for $1200. And that doesn't even include the cost of the wood.

Dave suggested a belt sander. Ha. Probably not a terrible idea.

d
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gbellware
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Re: Lee board proposition

Post by gbellware »

Dennis,

Thanks for chasing this down, seems like we are back to the drawing board. I wonder if there is another existing product out there that might be modified for this application? Maybe?

g
"There is nothing--absolutely nothing--half so much worth doing as simply messing around in boats"

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DLee
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Re: Lee board proposition

Post by DLee »

I'm thinking Greg and not coming up with much... Seems David and Patti would be the best solution. Maybe if we all made a well timed email barrage for longer leeboards they'd give it a little consideration?

I was thinking of carbon fibre - doing the cf over a foam core cut with a hot wire but I'm not sure this would be strong enough; unless you had several layers. What is inside your CF rib cores? They seemed plenty strong to me. But the whole CF thing seems messy and time consuming... not really my cup of tea.

There's a wood shop not too far from me. One of these days I'm going to go down again and see if they have a sanding device that I could use to make a nice beveled edge - not freehand. If so, I'll pick up some 1/4" or 1/2" marine ply and knock out few sets. Don't hold your breath Frank, ha, but one set will certainly come your way if I do this.

How big a deal do we think the airfoil really is? A longer leeboard would be really simple if we just rounded the edges like Klepper does. John, have you noticed a difference with your airfoil-ed boards?

d
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FrankP

Re: Lee board proposition

Post by FrankP »

Anybody ever ask BSD how much one of their Leeboards cost?

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gbellware
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Re: Lee board proposition

Post by gbellware »

I have never seen the Balogh up close, but it looks to me like it is no longer than the Kayaksailor leeboard, although it has much more area given its width. Can anyone comment? As for carbon fiber I suppose it could be done but it would be much less forgiving than fiberglass. Yes, the Klepper carbon framework is made with foam core, except for the combing which is fiberglass.
I think Dennis is right, a simple plywood leeboard with rounded edges? It may not even need to be as thick as the Klepper, it always struck me that those leeboards are way "beefier" than necessary.

g
"There is nothing--absolutely nothing--half so much worth doing as simply messing around in boats"

1988 A1 Expedition
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BSD sail rig, 24' mizzen + 36' main
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john allsop
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Re: Lee board proposition

Post by john allsop »

I can,t say i have noticed any difference that "air foils" or so so "air foils" has made, but then conditions vary most of the time so unless they can be tested in a controlled way or at least two identical kayaks one with an "air foil" lee board and one with rounded leading and trailing edges like the klepper, and both sailed at the same time to see if there is any apparent difference. But the people sailing them could make them different, not the boards. I think the main reason for lee boards is to try and stop "being pushed downwind". Thickness, if boards are made 3/8 thick then they will probably need to be 8 or 9 inches wide and this would allow the use of Klepper cross bars. From my experience narrow ones need to be 3/4 to 1 inch thick. David of Kayaksailor told me the cost of making molds for longer lee boards would be too high, although we could try and join two together, just thought of this and not looked at any problems in trying to do it.

DLee
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Re: Lee board proposition

Post by DLee »

John makes a good point. For a narrower board it needs to be thicker. At 3/4 or 1" thick an airfoil would certainly be helpful.

I still need to try my 1/2" flimsy whimsy... that will answer some questions. I wish I had two of them - making one with an orbital sander was so time consuming I can't imagine making another that way - unless I leave the airfoil out... which will be the case. The airfoil definitely weakened the overall strength at this thickness.

I've seen the Balogh lee boards. They're great - but it's the same rigging or similar to the Klepper rig. The Klepper rig works fantastic with the KS and I'm sure the Balogh would as well - the latter probably being overkill.

I think the idea is to adapt longer leeboards to the KS to keep that package as a compact unit. If you're not worried about that, get a Klepper leeboard setup. It'll be affordable, assemble easily and work great. Or one of Mark's Long Haul versions. The Balogh BOSS setup is really expensive if you don't get it with a sail package.
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john allsop
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Re: Lee board proposition

Post by john allsop »

We have to look at the original idea which was that the KS lee boards were short for a Klepper type hull as this hull raises the lee board. We seem to have been going in various directions, i have been playing about with lee boards for some years and have never really noticed much if any differance except that a narrower longer lee board seems to improve up wind sailing. With the Pacific Action sail when using the Klepper lee boards i could not sail up wind, (although i have seen reports that, with the klepper lee board the PA sail will go up wind, but i couldn,t do it), i had come to the conclusion , like a lot of people that the PA wouldn,t go up wind because of it,s design, but with a longer narrower lee board the PA sail will go up wind. The same might apply to the KS sail, it goes up wind with the supplied lee board and a longer one might make it better. I sanded my thick lee boards with a "mini grinder" which will take off a lot of wood quickly.

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Re: Lee board proposition

Post by john allsop »

I have been looking at the Solway Dory web site and they have what they say is a very good lee board. It is 4feet 4inches long x 8inches wide and made to an efficent hydrofoil shape. It is made for sailing canoes, if that makes any differance. Unfortunatly they don,t say how much of the blade is in the water when a canoe is sitting level on still water. Canoes vary in height so perhaps it dosnt matter. I don,t know if this could have a bearing on this disscusion as we seem to be thinking in terms of a blade half as wide. Currently they cost in round numbers 144$ US plus shipping and any import costs, not cheap but they look good. Although i am sure we can make our own.

DLee
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Re: Lee board proposition

Post by DLee »

John, we're thinking the same thing at the same time... funny. I got my Wooden Canoe Heritage Magazine in the mail yesterday and was looking at it and thinking about those nice canoe leeboards with handles carved into the top of them.

But if we wanted an 8" board we could simply use the Klepper setup and be done with it. What it did make me think though is that maybe we are barking up the wrong tree by using ply. Why not go to the lumber yard and get a nice hardwood 1x4, plane, sand, grind her down into an airfoil, cut it in half, drill a couple holes and be done. Try it out and if it works slap some varnish or epoxy on it. What do you think?

All the canoe leeboards I see are solid wood. Yes, they are eight inches wide as well... I don't know. Are we talking about warp city here with a 4" board? I don't think the KS cross bar could handle anything wider than 4 inches.

d
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Re: Lee board proposition

Post by john allsop »

The reason i like ply is so i could make the lee board on the "bread and butter" style which allows rough shaping by allowing the pieces of ply to be various widths so sort of making the foil shape before sanding. I am sure the KS cross tube wouldnt take a heavy lee board so a seperate cross bar is needed which i made, also the lee board could be on a outrigger cross tube as Folbot do it, providing it is in a convenient place just behind the sail. Then of course the KS sail has to be raised so that a cross bar can be positioned below it, another thing i already do. Of course as you say why not just use Klepper boards, i also made longer ones of these years ago. Winter is on the door step, snow forecast for to-morrow so it,s time to start "tinkering".
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DLee
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Re: Lee board proposition

Post by DLee »

Discussing speed issues in another topic I started revisiting the leeboard problem with the KS.

I mounted the Klepper rig and compared it to the KS

The Klepper board goes deeper when level. On a very steep lean they become close to even as in the second shot - but I can't imagine surviving a lean this steep… So the Klepper has the depth. But it is behind the center of effort.

Image

Image

This is the leeboard I made last fall. I'll have to measure it but I think it's in the 40 inch neighborhood and 4 inches wide like the KS. It's 9 mm marine ply if I remember correctly and I sanded it down to a slight airfoil with an orbital sander. It took forever which is why I only have one. I haven't used it yet for sailing. I did use it to separate the T9 longerons and keel pieces from the rubber a few times when I couldn't get the frame unstuck from the boat. So my beautiful finish is scraped and scratched and stained with rubber… c'est live' (sp). I did not fiberglass it. Although I may have coated it with epoxy before varnishing… can't remember. It's very flexible but holds the weight of the boat here. I figured if it could hold the boat over on land it might be strong enough for the water. Since it passed the test today I'll give it a try. Not positive, but I think it's a good 10-12 inches longer than the Klepper board.

Image

Image

Image

I really should be doing this test with the AII as that is where I feel a lack of speed with the KS… but… It's T time. Ha.

Will report findings here.

d
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Re: Lee board proposition

Post by robonaboat »

Hi Dennis. I’ve been quiet on the forum a long time but I’m still sailing and paddling my Longhaul but in Tasmania now. And I’m still reading the valuable posts you all contribute.

I want to try out my KS 1.4 sail on an old Klepper aerius 2 that I recently bought in Brisbane and I was thinking that it’d be better with the Klepper leeboards. I’d fix the sail over the front cockpit seat as far back as I can and still be able to comfortably use a canoe paddle from the rear cockpit seat. The Klepper leeboard aka will be under the KS base at its aka position so the same leeboard position.
In reference to your post above I couldn’t stop myself pointing out that the KS leeboards is 3 inch not 4 wide and in your comparison of the KS and Klepper leeboards the Klepper leeboard will be even deeper when heeled to the other, more important lee side because it’s further out from the side than the KS leeboard.
The Klepper leeboard will slow the boat more than the KS leeboard but I’m hoping it’ll enable sailing more upwind because of its greater depth and area. It won’t slow the boat when it’s pulled up for sailing off the wind.

Roberto
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gbellware
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Re: Lee board proposition

Post by gbellware »

Roberto,

Looking forward to your report on KS with Klepper leeboards. I think you are correct, and in keeping with my experience, that the KS leeboard is not very effective with a boat as big and with as much freeboard as the Klepper double. It is sort of like a popsicle stick relative to the massive Klepper hull, at least that was my experience. And I don't think the Klepper leeboards will cause too much drag at the speeds you can achieve with the 1.4 m2 KS. Let us know how it all works out!

g
"There is nothing--absolutely nothing--half so much worth doing as simply messing around in boats"

1988 A1 Expedition
2010 carbon Klepper Quattro
BSD sail rig, 24' mizzen + 36' main
39' jib
Torqeedo outboard
1938 Sachs-Fichtel seitenbordmotor

john allsop
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Re: Lee board proposition

Post by john allsop »

If anyone is interested I have just been looking at www.kajaksegel.de. They have nicely finished lee boards or blanks, plus all the fittings if required. They call them Daggerboards. They can be purchased singly or in pairs, or with what they call a Daggerboard Bridge. Not cheap but they look pretty good.

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