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 Post subject: Sailing seat
PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 10:03 am 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:05 pm
Posts: 1427
Location: South Salem, NY
I made this seat a long time ago. Even before the sailing deck appeared in my brain. The idea was to use it as an alternative to the $$$ Klepper sailing deck. I eyeballed the size and cut the plywood. It never really worked out as I could never figure out a good way to mount it other than at the very back of the cockpit and it was very slippery. I used it on the boat occasionally but it spent more time on our laps separating us from a very hot running (older) Mac Book Pro.

It got pretty beat up riding in the back of the car for a while so I put some Tung oil on it to freshen it up a bit the other day. Tung oil is amazing.

Anyway I don't know what thought process brought it about but I connected a seldom used paddle float to the seat and now I think it can be used as a sailing board mounted outside of the coaming on top of the sponson for support. I connect it to the boat with a single bungee.

In the yard everything worked amazing. In practice yesterday the seat is a little high and clipping and unclipping isn't as quick as when the boat is sitting on a work bench, ha. I do have this slip free material that fits on top to make it less slippery. I forgot to make a picture of that.

The good news is that the float fits pretty much perfectly inside the coaming at the middleish of the boat. It is a tight squeeze at the back which is unfortunate.

I think the 'wings' may need to be cut back a little to make it better for sitting on the side rail. The trick will be getting up on the side rail before the boat is healing... and once it's healing it's hard to go anywhere.

It's going to be nice to sit on again for fishing and seems an excellent table for cuisine on the high seas...

I keep thinking of some sort of sling seat that wouldn't be as high as this but close to the height of the coaming. A design that doesn't put too inward pressure on the coaming escapes me though.

Image Image

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By the way, I threw an uncut foam pad (Boy Scout sleeping pad) on top of the sailing deck and boy what a treat that was.

d

_________________
Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP


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 Post subject: Re: Sailing seat
PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 10:15 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:05 pm
Posts: 1427
Location: South Salem, NY
The sailing seat works! I used it all day today in really strong gusting winds on my lake. I also used the Hobie Sidekicks and must admit that I am for the moment... a convert. Saved me at least a dozen times today. Makes paddling a chore... but OK, I can deal with that.

I got some major speed today and had such a hard time staying in the clear channel that I just started blasting through the weeds in the rest of the lake.

Unfortunately I forgot to take the GoPro with me. I also tried a new main sheet system that takes up a lot less space but is not yet the cat's meow. I left the sailing control board off the boat and used the Klepper lee board bar for the jib sheets. I had to tie all my halyards to the mast and the jib sheets caught on this mess constantly - a real pain. But, I got to pushing so much water the bow was throwing a huge wake and the turbulence coming off the rudder looked like I had an outboard going.

I sailed with the jib up most of the day until the wind got so strong I could not come about into it. On one jibe my hat and polarized glasses got knocked off my head - I turned and saw them in the back of the boat, went back to the chores at hand - when I returned they were both gone. Major bummer. My favorite fitted Giants (SF) hat.

I left the lee boards loose because the weeds kicked them up no matter how tight. They kind of just rode over everything but only did a moderate job of holding the boat on course. The wind was gusting so strong steering the boat was like flat tracking a dirt bike - a kind of forward sideways slide. Steering is far to kind a term for the pathetic job the rudder did today. Shameful. Didn't see any bouncing though, I looked for that.

I think Klepper calls it a hiking seat... well, it works great! I leaned way out on it a couple times and even fell off the boat once when wind suddenly stopped and I couldn't recover to the inside. Fortunately I held onto the main sheet like a madman and stopped the boat in its tracks. I'm sure it would have taken off until it hit the bank.

I used the Sidekicks like training wheels trying to keep them off the water and I think I did a pretty good job. I definitely wasn't ready a couple of times though and those moments would have certainly been capsizes. At one point the wind seemed to be mellowing and I was getting a little tired so I moved the sailing seat forward and took a reclining position at the back of the boat. Standard rear seat paddling spot. No seat just on the deck with my back against the type IV cushion, and I think I was reclining a bit. Suddenly the boat took off like crazy, I found myself trying to lean and the low position was just no good. - I had this really weird sensation of trying to crawl out of a coffin, ha. No scary moment or anything, just weird being down in the big box - anyway the boat is flying and leaning more and more - I look to the sidekick and it's going under, diving, green weeds flowing over, "oh ship!" No!" Somehow I saved it, or the sidekick saved it, or the combo of my scrambling to lean, releasing the main, and the float I don't know, but it was close.

It made me wonder why nobody else has commented on Frank's question of the ama going under, I'm thinking my theory may be quite wrong. Ha.

I took both sails down to look for my hat and couldn't even paddle into the wind. I decided to continue sailing and just used the main. Much to my surprise it almost worked better alone in the strong gusts than together with the jib. I seemed to have a little more control and definitely wasn't getting blown sideways quite as bad. Any thoughts? comments? My body is sore.

Image

d

_________________
Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP


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 Post subject: Re: Sailing seat
PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 2:13 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:05 pm
Posts: 1427
Location: South Salem, NY
jarmland! ah so nice to hear someone else is alive and interested in sailing out there! ha.

Well, here are my thoughts, and as always... I am apt to change my mind if someone comes up with clearer thinking.

I love the jib and absolutely love the way it looks when sailing with it. So for me there is a huge aesthetic factor.

I do think it makes a lot of difference sailing in light to moderate wind. Probably in high wind as well but I think it starts introducing more problems than it's worth when the wind really picks up. In my early days of sailing I sailed quite a bit without it and noticed a substantial difference in handling and speed when I started using it. I won't say it doubles performance... but it feels like it comes close. Part of this 'feeling' could be the increased excitement the boat takes on from carrying more sail... but I'm pretty convinced speed increase more than the square footage would lead one to expect.

I love the way the jib funnels air over the back of the main and thereby helps it's performance... again, an aesthetic desire.

The jib helps quite a bit when coming about in lighter winds as well. By leaving the jib sheeted to the previous tack while coming about it helps turn the nose of the boat when you start coming into the wind. Once you come about you readjust it's position. The problem with this is that the jib rests and pushes against the mast as it's turning the bow - when it comes time to re-set it to the other tack the sheets are in perfect position to get hung up on hardware that is also on the mast. This happened to me time and time again in challenging 'coming-about' situations the other day.

Besides the jibs sheets/lines getting tangled it's a totally worthwhile addition in my opinion.

If you rig the jib so that it's basically a continuous loop of line you can raise and lower it from the cockpit very easily - especially if you have a couple clam cleats to hold these lines.

It's also a lot of fun to really let it fly out front when you are running downwind. Like a skinny spinnaker.

I really like using the jib and once I got over my fear of having so much sail up I definitely prefer to sail with it.

In very strong winds I have had issues. But I can't fault the jib entirely. I was sailing over a lot of weeds and the lee boards were kicked up much higher than they should have been. In this case the extra area of the jib pushed us sideways a lot. When I dropped the jib the CE moved back, the boat made much better way into the wind even with the lessened efforts of the lee boards. When the wind really started to howl it became impossible to come about with the jib up - whereas I could get enough speed and upwind angle with the main alone to actually come about 50% of the time.

I have sailed the jib and main on open water with full lee boards and it was just fantastic. I can't remember details because I probably wasn't having many problems...

When you add the jib you are definitely dialing up the activity meter in the boat. I sail alone 95% of the time. With my son (who's not so adventurous) or wife I would probably stick to the main alone, use the Kayaksailor, or put the outriggers on and play with the jib. I did come within moments of capsizing with the Hobie outriggers the other day... but they (the amas) did their job. They gave me that extra four seconds to get my lean on... otherwise I would have been swimming. Which of course begins another topic...

Yes, love your jib. ha.

d

_________________
Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP


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 Post subject: Re: Sailing seat
PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 2:18 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:05 pm
Posts: 1427
Location: South Salem, NY
I forgot to mention; for delightful slow sailing... and maybe even trolling, the jib alone is a lot of fun.

d

_________________
Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP


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 Post subject: Re: Sailing seat
PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 9:09 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:05 pm
Posts: 1427
Location: South Salem, NY
jarmland,

Love those pictures! Keep 'em coming.

A jib roller would be sweet!

I would love to see a picture of your raised sail from the side. It looks like a very nice rig. Do you know if that is a Lug Sail?

If you put eyebolts out on the ends of your lee boards it will definitely help give you jib a better shape. Thread the line through the eyebolt and then put a 'figure 8' knot in the line - that will keep the line from sliding out through the hole. I am in the process of changing my jib guides as well. I took some pictures on Monday, I'll try and post them tomorrow.

Holding the main sheet is fine, but trying to hold the jib sheet and the main is too much. You'll have to figure out some way to 'set' the jib lines for each tack. A sailing shop that caters to smaller sailboats - like the kind people and kids race - is a great spot to get some of this gear and a lot of good ideas about rigging.

The sailing seat, which should have been called the 'Hiking Seat' is so that you can sit a little higher in the boat and lean against the sail to keep the boat from capsizing - it's a challenging toy that takes some practice to get used to. I like it and am finally getting to a point where I pretty comfortable getting up on it. It also makes a nice table when you're sitting inside the boat. ha.

One very interesting thing that I've found about moving around the boat, like getting up on the sailing seat, it's very easy to do these things when the boat is underway, sailing. Think of riding a bicycle. It's much easier to lean into a curve when the bike has some speed. Balancing the bike when it's not moving on the other hand is pretty tough - although a lot of fun to do. So leaning and moving around the boat are a lot easier to do when the boat is moving than stationery. Plus, if you climb around the boat while your sailing it makes you feel more manly. ha.

How did you like the Lindemann book?

d

_________________
Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP


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 Post subject: Re: Sailing seat
PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 10:40 pm 
One thing I've noticed since buying the 2nd BSD sail is the downward pressure of the 24 softrack with a little lessl up front makes the BOSS amas want to submerge easier especially going faster in choppy waves. The KS did not have that effect & while I have not been able to fully test the theory, I feel you may be right about having more sail up front at times may work to your disadvantage. We plan to go out tomorrow afternoon so we may do some testing. As far as tacking into the wind with more sail, we keep the front sail out on the previous tack while I let the 36 go over to make the turn. Then the 24 comes over just as you do.
We have tried to come about in stronger wind & failed so I turned away from wind & made the tack with a little less wind.


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 Post subject: Re: Sailing seat
PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 12:40 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:05 pm
Posts: 1427
Location: South Salem, NY
jarmland,

Here is a not so great pic of what I'm currently planning. This is a small Harken unit that guides and binds the line like a clam cleat but works really well. It's in the exact position that the old eyebolt was in. Notice the original clam cleat for the eyebolt on the side of the lee board bar. Depending on how the line lays coming out of the Harken clamp I might have to take this off. Clam cleats grab the line any time they can whereas this Harken type of clamp only grabs it when the line is forced down between the rollers.

I am also going to put some small cleats at the center of the bar to hold the jib and main halyards. Not sure on size... these are kinda small but may work. I'll need one more for the jib line going to the bow.

Image

The outrigger is from the Hobie Sidekick system. I drilled through the bar to mount on the coaming with J-bolts.

Here's a link so you can enlarge this pic: http://www.dennisleephotography.com/Boats/Klepper/n-p9swW/i-3BQSGgw

I'll have to give the Lindemann book a try.

d

_________________
Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP


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 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Sailing seat
PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 7:29 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:05 pm
Posts: 1427
Location: South Salem, NY
Oh yeah, they release by lifting the line above the two rollers - but the line is still contained by the guide at top. They work fantastic. Get a demo at your boat shop.

I'm having some reservations about drilling into the original wood as well. Haven't done it yet... ha. I did get the screws a couple hours ago... we'll see. Pretty sure I'll do it. It's just too big of an improvement not to do it.

Not sure about those little cleats though. I think they are too small. On the other hand, one wrap and a pinch is really all I need. I'll mount one on a scrap piece of wood and see how it fits with my line size.

d

_________________
Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP


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 Profile  
 
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