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 Post subject: Advanced Elements Boats?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:55 am 
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Is there a reason why Advanced Elements craft are not found up with the majority of other folder makes? Having AE down where it is will likely get the brand ignored. Can this be fixed?


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:54 pm 
lord high faltbotmeister
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I don't think they risk being "ignored". All the inflatables are grouped under the "inflatable" subheading. I don't think there are enough posts for any of the inflatable brands to necessitate any of them having their own heading.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:44 pm 
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I disagree that Advanced Elements boats won't be overlooked, located as they are under Kayak Makers Forum. And we have not yet learned the reason why AE boats are where they are and not up with the other major makers. Perhaps a category of "hybrid", meaning folder/inflatable kayaks, could be contrived for such craft. Unless there is some compelling reason for AE craft to be where they are, it should be an easy thing to move them upstairs.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:16 pm 
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As KerryOnKayaks explained, it's because they're not folding kayaks. They're inflatables.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 10:28 pm 
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A somewhat different perspective:

Imagine a dial with "Pure Folding Boat" on one extreme, and "Pure Inflatable Boat" on the other, and a spectrum of gradation between as one turns the knob, varying the amount of "folding" with "inflatable." So, we have Oru as the pure folder: no air bladders, sponsons, tubes of any sort to inflate. Supply any name you like on the other end, perhaps the Feathercraft Aironaut, making sure it has no frame of any sort and preferably an inflated hull under one's seat and feet. Between, we have Kleppers, Feathercraft, Advanced Elements, whatever, as impure, mongrel, hybrid sorts of boats that must have various inflatable bladders, sponsons, stiffeners fully inflated in order to have their proper shape and integrity. My trusty AE Airfusion has an enclosing frame of metal tubes that largely define its shape, a pure skin deck, and a pure skin hull beneath me. All it lacks are hard ribs. The only inflatable elements are two side tubes each side, a bulkhead fore and aft to define the cockpit area and the kayak's beam, and an inflatable cockpit rim. Its position on our rotating dial between the extremes of pure folder and pure inflatable is thus only perhaps a degree or two more "inflatable" than Kleppers, Feathercraft, etc.

So we are dealing with something a bit more nuanced than folder v. inflatable here, and experience with an Advanced Elements kayak will quickly reveal the close familial ties that result in the mixed lineage shared by traditional "folders" and avowed hybrid craft like the Airfusion.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 9:12 am 
lord high faltbotmeister

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It's a cool hybrid, the original AirFusion. I have one and love it for rock gardening and surfing. I wouldn't worry about whether there's a dedicated section on AE kayaks or not - if you do a search you'll easily find the AE posts and also see that there are very few posts, but that doesn't make those posts harder to find

Paddle on

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Pakboats Quest 135, Nautiraid Narak 460, 416 & K1 (sold my 550), First light 420, Feathercraft Wisper, Fujita Alpina AL-1 400, Incept k40 (for sale)
Non-folders: Cape Falcon F1. Beth sailing canoe, 2014 Hobie Adventure Island


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 1:16 pm 
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Siravingmon, we Airfusion enthusiasts enjoy and love our boats! But here's my view on the placement of AE in the scheme of things here: I do not find it transparently easy to locate past AE posts, scattered as they are among Inflatables, What Boat For Me, and the odd AE location under Kayak Makers Forum. In fact, it may well be that the low density of AE posts may in part be due to the Chthonian obscurity which confronts the incoming poster looking to read about AE boats or to post about them--just too hard to find, suggesting a certain lack of enthusiasm (wholly unjustified, I'm sure) on the part of the Forum for AE craft. While I'm not saying Provide a Proper Home for AE Boats, and the Posts Will Come, it surely couldn't hurt anyone to provide AE a place at the main table. Might even draw more traffic!


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 1:28 pm 
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If you go to AE's web site, you'll see they call it an inflatable.

I've created a sticky post at the top of the Inflatable section just for AE discussion. Let's see how much traffic it gets.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 1:57 pm 
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I've read the AE description (labeling) of their craft as inflatables. I've also looked at the Pakboats website, where they describe Pakboats as combining the best features of folders and inflatables. So we are dealing with a nuanced situation: are ribs necessary to be a folder? That rules out Oru. What is the exact ratio of bladders to frame? Pakboats is at the big table with the rest of the "folders" both pure and impure, but not AE. I suggest inclusion and easy visibility and access is better than exclusion in this instance, for the several reasons I've listed previously.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 7:06 pm 
lord high faltbotmeister
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Technically, 3 of Feathercraft's models (the Java, the Gemini and the short-lived Aironaut) were inflatables (the Java and Gemini also had internal "spines" similar to many of the Advanced Elements models but the Aironaut was all air), so your argument is somewhat valid. But Feathercraft and the other makers who encorporate sponson tubes into their boats have still been primarily folding kayak builders. As has already been mentioned, this IS a FOLDING kayak site.

As to finding posts that relate to specific models, your complaint of having to search multiple threads to find them is the same for any marque. I just use the "search" function. People post their initial threads in any range of categories so not every exchange about, say, Pakboats, is going to be under the "Pakboat" heading anyway.

There are various quirks in this site, such as the fact that recently active threads that are down in the boat marque categories won't turn up on the "view active topics" listing. Perhaps this is intentional, with the admin figuring the general population won't be interested in esoterica about models they don't use. But for a free/donation supported site I think it continues to be a good one.

You might try emailing Mike Edelman and asking if he would consider a dedicated AE heading since you feel strongly about it. With the gradual demise of folding kayak makers perhaps we will eventually have a separate section for "Extinct" marques anyway, leaving plenty of room for the various blow up boats -- I think there are probably more inflatable makers still in business worldwide now than those that make folders.

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Feathercraft K-1 Expedition
Pakboat XT-15


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 10:43 pm 
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I believe that I understand that this is a FOLDING kayak site, and hasten to add that my Airfusion folds compactly. However, it is not exclusively a folding kayak site, certainly not a pure such site, as really only Oru and Trak are free of inflatable bladders, sponsons, etc. (though I am open to correction here); most other folders being hybrids to one degree or another. But I will no longer press my point beyond suggesting that a Hybrid category be established with AE and Pakboats among its first occupants, and that AE be removed from the problematically-named Kayak Makers Forum. Perhaps my suggestions will be implemented; perhaps not. But I am at peace, buoyed up by my sturdy, reliable AE Airfusion folder/inflatable hybrid kayak.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 7:37 pm 
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Yellowboat, here's a project for you:

Create an index post at the head of the inflatables section with links to all the AE posts you can find, and I'll make it a sticky. That way not only will people be able to find past AE posts, but we'll have an inidication of exactly how much AE interest and activity we have here. We can go on from there to decide if we need an AE section.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 8:08 pm 
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Michael, I am a useless idiot when it comes to doing anything like what you suggest, so I must decline as gracefully as I can. Just in passing, I offer the following nuggets of information: a Search search turns up 6 Foldlite references, 36 Atlatl references, and 97 references for AE boats. None of this may be relevant to anything.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 12:25 am 
lord high faltbotmeister
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Michael has created a "sticky" -- there is a category just for AE now under the Manufacturers tab and he moved two previous threads into it.

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Current:
Feathercraft Wisper
Pakboat Quest 135
Pakboat Puffin 12
Pakboat Swift 14
Greenland SOF
P & H Easky 15LV
Previous:
Feathercraft Kahuna
Feathercraft K-1 Expedition
Pakboat XT-15


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 2:46 am 
lord high faltbotmeister

Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2011 1:51 pm
Posts: 618
Location: Colombo, Sri Lanka
Shame Atlatl are no longer with us. As I understand it we should all be thankful that Foldlite are no more though :shock:
http://www.foldingkayaks.org/WP/?page_id=21

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Simon

Pakboats Quest 135, Nautiraid Narak 460, 416 & K1 (sold my 550), First light 420, Feathercraft Wisper, Fujita Alpina AL-1 400, Incept k40 (for sale)
Non-folders: Cape Falcon F1. Beth sailing canoe, 2014 Hobie Adventure Island


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