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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 11:12 am 
Hello all!

I own a 1960's folbot Pioneer 450s kayak (you can see pictures of an exact replica here: http://www.pluennenkreuzer.de/02_Pionie ... 0s_01.html).

The bottom part of mine is ruined and I am in the process of changing the cotton fabric. I am using a beige number 10 canevas-cotton. Would you happen to know what would be the best way to give it its original grey color and how to waterproof the fabric?

Thank you for your help.
Ghislain
ghislaindemers@gmail.com


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 11:51 am 
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Was the original not some sort of rubber? It is usually a form of rubber with a fabric core, but I doubt its feasible to reproduce that sort of fabric yourself without access to industrial equipment.

But I think you can use the cotton fabric - builders of Greenland kayaks do this all the time, and so far as I know they use some sort of varnish to "dope" the cotton and make it waterproof enough for immersion. My worry would be whether a fabric treated this way would stand up to repeated folding and unfolding - I just don't know.

You could try the QajaqUSA forums for more information on this approach.

Otherwise, you could go with PVC, and for that the best source of information on that would be Tom Yost's site

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 7:32 pm 
Hello nohoval_turrets!

No, the original was cotton with a thick kind of metallic grey paint. Thank you for the links. I will look into them.

I do worry as well about folding and paint or varnish. There must be something I do not know about...

Have a good evening. I will report back if I find something.
Ghislain


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:54 pm 
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I think that "metallic grey paint" is actually rubber.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 7:45 pm 
That's interesting. It does not feel like rubber but if it is, it would make sense.

Is liquid rubber available to purchase and if so, how can I apply it to my new cotton canevas?

Thank you for your help.
Ghislain


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 8:58 pm 
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Ghislain,

Where are you located? Sourcing a "paint-on" rubber which will seal the canvas will be easier if we know which part of the world you have access to.

In the US, a frequently used material is polyurethane, typically in a solvent-based formulation. If you Google up "skin on frame kayaks" you will find recommendations about what to use.

Also, "airplane dope" was frequently used in years past to seal cotton canvas, on planked craft such as canoes. Not sure where you might source such stuff ... and a lot depends on where you live.

BTW, a dacron (polyester) skin will be more durable and less rot-prone than canvas. The SOF references you locate will provide sources for it,

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 8:10 am 
Hi Dave!

Good point, I live in Sherbrooke, Québec. About 1 1/2 hours East of Montréal.

I will look up "skin on frame kayaks".

I agree about the dracon skin. I decided to stick with cotton for both historical accuracy and financial reasons. I got the necessary cotton for about $100 and I found a cotton canoe builder that will sew it all for me. All together, I am looking at a repair job that will cost less than $400. The cheapest other kind of skin option I had found was running well into the $1000s.

I will give it a try and see. Maybe in a couple of years, I will invest in a more durable, less maintenance option. This way, I will have both.

Thank you for your help.
Ghislain


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PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2010 11:36 am 
Hello Folks.

I am sending you new pictures I took yesterday.

It looks like there is Lin seed oil in between the two cotton layers. I am wondering if they initially soaked or saturated the cotton canvas in lin seed oil, let it dry for several weeks and then coated the outside with a thick paint. It looks like the inside was also painted but with a watered or thinnered down coat (one the one image, I am showing both sides.

I have not been able to locate a supplier of rubberized PU yet.

Thank you for your insight and help.
Ghislain


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PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2010 11:38 am 
Here is the last picture:


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PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2010 7:00 pm 
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Ooof! No clue what that stuff is, but it looks like it needs replacing. I know nothing about older Folbots, but there is a corps of devotees on the Folbot Forum who love these old boats and probably can help.

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Astoria, OR
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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 7:30 am 
Thank you Dave.

I got a response from Folbot and it turns out my kayak is a "Faltboot" Pioneer 450s and therefore not a Folbot. I found a few sites which sell them but they are all in German. Even using Google translate did not help much when trying to communicate with them. I'll wait and see if they respond.

http://www.faltbootshop.de/

Thank you all for your help.
Ghislain


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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 11:09 pm 
I've been too busy to read here for two or three months. I've got a blue-decked 450-S. Here's a link to the page of a guy in Germany who got a new skin for his 450-S. http://www.pluennenkreuzer.de/02_Pionie ... 0s_01.html I thought about buying a Wayland hullskin for mine, but will hold off. When the class I'm taking is finished, I'll instead finally get a keelstrip applied to my boat's hull and then apply a coat of a toxic silver-hued "bootswax" I think it's called. Longhaul Folding Kayaks may have some old cans of the Klepper hull-wax in stock.


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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 7:52 am 
Good morning Christov_Tenn!

Thank you for the info and the link. I had not heard of the silver-hued "bootswax" but I will look it up. I will write Longhaul Folding Kayaks to see what they might suggest.

A bit of an up-date. We think we found out what we will use for the in-between layer coating. Marine Ketol (in French: Cétole Marine). We are doing tests to see how waterproof it will turn out to be but it looks promising. It it works, we will only need to find out what to coat the outside of the kayak with. We are having problems finding a solution that will be flexible enough not to crack when folded repeatedly.

Thank you for your suggestions, I will look into them this week.
Ghislain


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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 2:09 pm 
With this cracking pattern on the rubber coat the hull looks dead to me. You better replace it, - not repair.

There is no linseed oil or impregnant used on mid-layer fabric these days, AFAIK. It's just a synthetic fabric (polyester usually), laminated on both sides with some polymer - either synthetic rubber (Hypalon hulls of Longhaul and Wayland) or vinyl (PVC hulls, this laminated fabric is usually the cheapest and the easiest to find if you want to make your own hull), or urethane.
May be they used some impregnant on natural canvas fabric long time ago, to protect it from rot, but now the fabric is synthetic. In any event, treating this mid-layer fabric with something is waste of time and money if outer coats of rubber can't be restored.


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