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PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2016 4:55 pm 
Hello Everyone,

I'm new to this forum and hope to find some help while I try to reactivate my Folbot Greenland II. I'm in Austria right now and summer is starting so we would love to get out on a river soon.

I am not sure what year it was made, it has plastic ribs, aluminum tubes, red canvas, black bottom, and plastic washboards.

Issue 1:

I'm missing the entire stern keel and tubes. I had to leave it behind in the Pacific Islands after the tubes would not disconnect from each other for folding (I had it assembled there for quite a while) and were thus too large to check in for my flight. It was very last minute, so I left the whole piece behind. I'm not sure if I can get it back, so I'm looking for alternatives.

I had once broken the bow keel and Folbot was very quick to ship a replacement, however, it seems like they have gone out of business (I couldn't reach anyone and I read something along these lines in another forum post here), so I have no idea now where to get help on this or how to source spare parts.

I still have the old bow keel and I could try to repair that one (the connectors where the long tube attaches has broken off) and try to get the right tubes and fittings locally somehow. Before doing that, are the stern and the bow keel plastic parts exactly the same? If so, could anyone with access to a Greenland II maybe measure the tube dimensions, so I can replicate the tubes? Does anyone know if the tubes are made of some special aluminum?

Issue 2:

About half of the plastic plates that hold the rivets are somehow cracked or broken, partly wear, partly by being thrown around the plane. I found that the the rivets Folbot uses are aluminum Magna-Lok types, which I will try to find locally. I'm wondering however what to do with the plastic plates. Does anyone have experience with DIY replacing them? I'm thinking of replacing all plates in one go. Options I could think of was cutting and bending HDPE plates to the right fit, or going for plywood or aluminum plates instead. For the later two, I would have to think of something for the tongues as well. Any suggestions or ideas greatly appreciated.

Issue 3:

The black bottom has greyed out a bit, but is dark black when wet or where I found coincidental grease stains. I was thinking of applying some kind of wax or something to it in order to (a) refresh the looks and (b) protect the material a bit more. I was thinking of waxing the canvas as well, maybe with the same wax type I usually use on my outdoor canvas jacket in winter. What are your thoughts on that?

Greatly appreciate your help!!

Thanks!


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PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2016 5:21 pm 
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Location: Southeast Michigan
Re 1: Maybe one of our Greenland owners could send you measurements on the tubes and a tracing of the ribs and stern piece. You could make a replacement out of HDPE sheet or marine plywood.

2: I think you're on the right track. I've used stainless steel pop rivets on Folbots and sailboat masts.

3. For the hull, the best thing is 303, which is hopefully available near you. They also make a spray for fabrics. DOn't use wax. The deck is coated polyester fabric, not canvas.

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PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2016 11:24 am 
knight of the folding kayak realm
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knox wrote:
I am not sure what year it was made, it has plastic ribs, aluminum tubes, red canvas, black bottom, and plastic washboards.

The polycarbonate crossframes would place it before 2004 as the GII went to all AL crossframes that year.
The polycarbonate washboards would place it before 2001 as the GII went to AL that year.
Are the nose piece, cockpit nose piece and rudder gudgeon poly or AL?

Quote:
Issue 1: I'm missing the entire stern keel and tubes.

Yes, Folbot is out of business. The owner hopes to resurrect it in the future but no one knows when.
Meanwhile, the only source for parts is used boats - eBay, Craigslist and this forum.

Quote:
I still have the old bow keel and I could try to repair that one (the connectors where the long tube attaches has broken off) and try to get the right tubes and fittings locally somehow.

Since it's just the attachment point for the longeron tube, you could easily repair it with a block of Delrin. Cut it to size, cut or machine a grove in it for the tube, drill the needed holes , cut the old ears off the keel and bolt your new block in place.

Quote:
Before doing that, are the stern and the bow keel plastic parts exactly the same?

I don't know but can find out in a couple weeks. I'll unpack my GIIs and see if they are absolutely identical.

Quote:
If so, could anyone with access to a Greenland II maybe measure the tube dimensions, so I can replicate the tubes? Does anyone know if the tubes are made of some special aluminum?

I can do that as well.
The tubing is 3/4" 6063-T832 AL with clear anodizing. You could use raw AL tubing and treat it periodically with Boeshield to prevent corrosion. Which, by the way would have prevented your joints freezing up on you in your salt water environment.

Note to all: if you're using your folder in salt water environment be sure to treat all the frame joints with Boeshield T-9 at least once a season.

Quote:
Issue 2: About half of the plastic plates that hold the rivets are somehow cracked or broken, partly wear, partly by being thrown around the plane.

This is a bigger fabrication chore. I have a few used ones but not enough to do your whole boat.
If you can do the fabrication, I'd recommend Delrin again. It machines very nicely. Others may know of something newer and better. My experience goes back into the 1970s.
If metal is easier for you, then 1/4" plate would work.
HDPE would work as well.

Quote:
I found that the the rivets Folbot uses are aluminum Magna-Lok types, which I will try to find locally.

I found them on the inet once. I'll have to look for the link.

Quote:
Issue 3: The black bottom has greyed out a bit, but is dark black when wet or where I found coincidental grease stains. I was thinking of applying some kind of wax or something to it in order to (a) refresh the looks and (b) protect the material a bit more. I was thinking of waxing the canvas as well, maybe with the same wax type I usually use on my outdoor canvas jacket in winter. What are your thoughts on that?

Most people use 303. They have a product for both the Hypalon hull and the poly deck.
The problem is nothing will stick to a 303 treated surface. You won't be able to do field repairs.

Anybody have recommendations for treatments?

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PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2016 4:14 pm 
Thanks you both for your quick responses!

Quote:
Are the nose piece, cockpit nose piece and rudder gudgeon poly or AL?


They are all AL. Does that help to tell the age?

Quote:
I'll unpack my GIIs and see if they are absolutely identical.


Thanks a lot. In the meantime, I tried to compare parts from what is visible in the assembly video on youtube. (I have some screenshots with the parts side by side, but the upload file size limit is too low I think to upload something well visible). From that I actually believe that the plastic parts are in fact identical. So, I will try to repair the broken ears and recycle that part.

Quote:
The tubing is 3/4" 6063-T832 AL with clear anodizing.


Thanks for the specs. I'll see what I can find. Does anyone happen to know what those thum pressed clips are called with the tips that stick out of the tubes? I will need to get those also somehow to clip everything together.

Quote:
This is a bigger fabrication chore.


Agree. There is a fab lab I can get some instructions and access for a CNC machine. Maybe I can pull it off with that. Also, I noticed in the assembly video that the current plastic parts are thicker (not sure how tick exactly) and that they wrap around the tube, which probably adds to stability, so I will try to replicate that too. On material choice, does metal make the setup maybe too stiff, as it is less flexible than plastics?

Quote:
2: I think you're on the right track. I've used stainless steel pop rivets on Folbots and sailboat masts.


Found a local company that may have the Magna-Loks, but they are still checking stock for my size.

Quote:
3. For the hull, the best thing is 303, which is hopefully available near you. They also make a spray for fabrics. DOn't use wax. The deck is coated polyester fabric, not canvas.


thanks for clearing that up, good thing I haven't attacked it with wax yet.

Quote:
The problem is nothing will stick to a 303 treated surface. You won't be able to do field repairs.


But repairs back home would still work? Does it have to be removed before repairs? I'm a bit of a novice on that. I have never done any repair to the skin, but I do have some spare patches of black and red skin and canvas.

I read somewhere about RIB Revive RIB Cleaner, but I'm hesitant because I'm not sure what's in it.


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PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2016 9:54 pm 
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Location: Southeast Michigan
I'd use HDPE, not Delrin. It's cheaper, and widely available. Feathercraft used it for ribs in many of their boats.

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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2016 10:05 am 
knight of the folding kayak realm
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Location: west burbs of Chicago
knox wrote:
. . . nose piece, cockpit nose piece and rudder gudgeon are all AL.

That still puts you at 2001 or older.
One last question. Do the seats look like this?

Attachment:
MoldedSeat-1.jpg


Quote:
Does anyone happen to know what those thumb pressed clips are called with the tips that stick out of the tubes?

It's called a Snap Button or a Spring Button.

Attachment:
Snap-Button-Small-1.jpg


Search Amazon for Spring Button - they have many.

Quote:
There is a fab lab I can get some instructions and access for a CNC machine.

If you'd like an official Folbot part to copy, I can loan you one.
You could make them from AL plate as well but as you say, it would be a bit stiffer. One of the advantages of a folder is a little bit of flex. Of course too much flex is bad, but a little is good.

Quote:
The problem is nothing will stick to a 303 treated surface. You won't be able to do field repairs.


Quote:
But repairs back home would still work?

No. 303 doesn't come off. Well, there might be a solvent that would do something but it would probably attack the fabric too. Find a protectant that you can stick duct tape to and you're good to go.


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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2016 10:32 am 
faltbootemeister

Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2015 4:10 pm
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I'm wondering if metal plates wouldn't be a problem where ribs attach. On my boats those plastic plates crown a bit under the tension of the attached ribs. If the plates had no give the ribs might be quite difficult to attach.

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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2016 3:49 pm 
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Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 12:34 pm
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303 isn't silicone, and I'm pretty sure you can clean a 303 treated surface with toluene and get adhesives to stick.

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PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2016 8:45 am 
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That's good to know since 303 is really good for UV protection.
I'm not sure I'd want to carry toluene with me on the water, but if necessary for field repairs then I'd figure a safe way to carry it.

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PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2016 5:30 pm 
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I've been paddling Folbots, Kleppers, Long Hauls, Feathercrafts, and other boats for 19 years and I've never had to do a field hull repair. It takes a lot to cut these heavy Hypalon laminates, like dragging a boat over coral. Sometimes years of wear over a single spot will wear the coating.,

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