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 Post subject: Repair questions for GII
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 4:15 pm 
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Attachment:
IMG_3055.JPG
Attachment:
IMG_3055.JPG
I have a second-hand GII, which I used for a summer—until one of the cross-frames snapped.
I called up Folbot and ordered a cross-frame, along with some new plastic plates, several of which were cracked.
I had a terrible time getting Folbot to fill my order. It took about 6 weeks—and each time I called them to check in I was told the person who makes the spare parts hasn't come in to work. I'm not at all surprised they went under.

But that's beside the point. I am just getting around to doing the repairs, and I have some questions.

1. One of the aluminum tubes has snapped. (see photo 1) Does anyone have any ideas about getting a replacement? I mean, is there aluminum tubing out there that could be used to substitute? Alternately, does anyone have a tube they are willing to sell?

Attachment:
IMG_3055.JPG


Has anyone done repairs on an older GII with new parts? I notice they aren't quite the same.

2. The cross-frame I got (#4) is aluminum, while my GII had carbon-fiber(?) cross-frames. The aluminum is slightly smaller. A problem?

3. The plastic plates are definitely not the same size and the holes/tabs are not lined up with the old ones. (see photo 2) Has anyone encountered this? And how did you deal with it?

Attachment:
IMG_3056.JPG


Many thanks for looking at my post. All answers are very much appreciated. Thanks

s


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 6:54 pm 
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You can get anodized aluminum tubing from a number of online supplies like onlinemetals.com. The old ribs were made of a thermoplastic, not carbon fiber. I replaced the ribs in an older Aleut with the newer tubing ribs with no problems. Use stainless steel pop rivets for replacing parts- you can find them at boating supplies vendors.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 9:49 pm 
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mje wrote:
You can get anodized aluminum tubing from a number of online supplies like onlinemetals.com. The old ribs were made of a thermoplastic, not carbon fiber. I replaced the ribs in an older Aleut with the newer tubing ribs with no problems. Use stainless steel pop rivets for replacing parts- you can find them at boating supplies vendors.


Hi Michael.
Thanks for answering my questions.
There is some curvature to the tubing—would you suggest I just ignore it and replace the part with a straight tube, or try to match the curve with a tube-bending instrument?
Also—any particular reason to use stainless steel rivets over aluminum?


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2016 8:37 am 
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Rather than stainless pop-rivets, these are similar to what Folbot used to build their boats.

Attachment:
rivets_600.jpg

http://www.cherryaerospace.com/document ... %27%209000

They can be installed with any ordinary pop-rivet tool.
It's an old type that has been upgraded to these

http://www.cherryaerospace.com/product/cherrymax
http://www.aerotfs.com/max_specs.htm

which are probably overkill for a Folbot.

As for curvature in the longerons, that's normal for them to take a curve after several assemblies and significant time in assembled state. I suggest you repair your existing tubing rather than replacing it.


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Last edited by flatwater on Thu Sep 08, 2016 9:19 am, edited 6 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2016 8:52 am 
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sergey wrote:
I had a terrible time getting Folbot to fill my order.

Did you get new frame plates from Folbot? Do you have enough to repair your GII?

Quote:
1. One of the aluminum tubes has snapped. (see photo 1) Does anyone have any ideas about getting a replacement?

You can fix the broken tube with a splint.
I would get a smaller diameter tube to slide inside the break and a larger diameter tube to slide over the break. It will probably work to just use a larger tube over the outside. That's Folbot's recommended method.
Drill new holes for the rivets and you're good to go.

Quote:
Has anyone done repairs on an older GII with new parts? I notice they aren't quite the same.

Yes, there are minor differences in parts but most are backward compatible. In particular, the crossframes.
Quote:
2. The cross-frame I got (#4) is aluminum, while my GII had carbon-fiber(?) cross-frames. The aluminum is slightly smaller. A problem?

Nope. The aluminum frame will work with the older frame plates.

Quote:
3. The plastic plates are definitely not the same size and the holes/tabs are not lined up with the old ones. (see photo 2) Has anyone encountered this? And how did you deal with it?

The frame plates are made of injection molded, glass filled poly carbonate. The one you show in your picture is very weird. I've never seen one with the holes off center. Are all your frame plates like that? Do all the crossframes have the brass screws in an off-center position to match the frame plates?
Can you post a picture of one of your poly crossframes so we can see the positioning of the two brass screws on the bottom?

I can't believe the boat would go together properly with holes that far off center. Perhaps that's why your longeron tube broke.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2016 10:46 pm 
paddler

Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2016 3:37 pm
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Thank you for looking at my post.

flatwater wrote:
Did you get new frame plates from Folbot? Do you have enough to repair your GII?


Yes, I have the right number of plates. But they are all quite different from the originals.
As you can see in the photo, all the side plates have the holes off-center. All the bottom plates are centered.
Also, the original plates are a good deal wider than the replacements.

Attachment:
IMG_3060.JPG


flatwater wrote:
Do all the crossframes have the brass screws in an off-center position to match the frame plates? Can you post a picture of one of your poly crossframes so we can see the positioning of the two brass screws on the bottom? I can't believe the boat would go together properly with holes that far off center. Perhaps that's why your longeron tube broke.


Here are some pictures of cross-frame #3. I don't know how one could tell whether the brass screws are off-center. They seem to be equidistant from the corners. The screws on the bottom are centered, of course, and so are the bottom frame plates.

Attachment:
IMG_3059.JPG

Attachment:
IMG_3058.JPG


I have replaced all the cracked plates with new ones. I imagine this is going to cause a good deal of trouble putting the boat together, since the new holes are in a different position. Will find out tomorrow when a new aluminum tube arrives to replace the broken one. This seemed easier than trying to find sleeves with the precise inside diameter of 3/4" or an inside tube with the precise outer diameter of .701". Though maybe it's not as hard as all that. Anyway, I will let the forum know how it goes in the end.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2016 9:18 am 
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OK, that is the most bizarre thing I've ever seen on a Folbot.
I can't imagine how the boat ever went together properly.
The screws on the crossframe are exactly where they should be, both for the bottom keel plate and for the side plates as well.
Yet all the frame plate holes are WAY off center.

You say they are wider than the new ones, but the picture in your first post comparing the new and old show them to be the same size as best I can tell from the picture.
It's just that the holes are NOT in the right place. I believe that boat has been wrong from day one and assembling it would have been a challenge. I also believe it contributed to the longeron break.

Now that you have correct frame plates in all positions, I think you'll find assembling the boat to be much easier.

If Folbot were still in operation, I think the owner would be fascinated by those old plates.
Of course he is two "ownerships" removed from when those were made. That happened when Phil Cotton owned the company, and I know from talking with him in those days that he was having problems with his injection molding house. That's why he went to bending aluminum for the crossframes to eliminate the molding problems, though he still used molding for the frame plates and other fittings.

What do you plan to do with those old plates?
If you are going to throw them away, would you be willing to ship them to me?
I'll pay for the shipping.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2016 9:24 am 
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sergey wrote:
flatwater wrote:
Did you get new frame plates from Folbot? Do you have enough to repair your GII?

Yes, I have the right number of plates. But they are all quite different from the originals.
As you can see in the photo, all the side plates have the holes off-center. All the bottom plates are centered.

I missed this point on my previous readings. So only the side frame plates have the off-center holes? The bottom (keel) plates are OK?
If so, then I can see how the boat would go together reasonably well, but still not really correct as the crossframe screws are in the correct position. Oh, unless the crossframe molding was changed at some point, which I doubt as there was never a post on the old Folbot Forum about crossframes not being backward compatible.
Hey, DickC, are you out there? Does your GII have off-center holes on the side-frame plates?
I don't remember what year your boat is, but I know it came from the Phil Cotton days.

Quote:
I have replaced all the cracked plates with new ones. I imagine this is going to cause a good deal of trouble putting the boat together, since the new holes are in a different position.

Not if you replaced all 14 of the side-frame plates. I'll bet it goes together much better, even if some of the longerons have taken a curved set, which most of them do over the years.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2016 10:10 am 
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I just dug up an old picture of Dave Kruger's Kodiak from 2004 and can see his side-frame plates do have the holes centered. I don't know how old his Kodiak was when he took the pictures but I do know he already had it in 2003.
How much older your GII is will be hard to determine. The Kodiak was introduced in 1998 so your GII could be 8 years older than that.

When the GII was introduced in 1990, the aluminum tubing was blue anodized.
By 2003 it had been changed to clear anodized, but I don't know when that change took place. The pics of Dave's Kodiak show clear anodize as well. I wish I knew what year his boat was.
I do know that 2004 was the first year for aluminum crossframes.
That doesn't help place your boat's date as the span is at least 13 years.

I'll add a request again for anyone with an early 1990's GII.
Does anyone out there have an old GII with off-center holes on the side-frame plates?

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2016 2:02 pm 
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Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2016 3:37 pm
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Well, the tube I ordered turned out to be the wrong wall thickness, so the final report will have to wait until it's exchanged.
I did try to put in the cross-frames where I could to see how they fit. What I discovered is that the original off-center holes actually make a whole lot of sense with the original cross-frames: the top of the frame lines up very neatly with the top of the longeron. The new plates on the other side throw that well out of alignment, by about 1/2".

Attachment:
IMG_3071.JPG
Attachment:
IMG_3070.JPG


We'll have to see how that plays out once the skin goes on the armature.

I have another question / problem:
[Continued in the next post—because of image per post limitations]


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2016 2:11 pm 
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Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2016 3:37 pm
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It looks like my #2 cross frame is not in the right place with relation to the rest of the structure. As you can see in the first picture, the tube that lies down along the top and clicks into #2 does not quite reach, and I have to bend the frame in to connect. It is not so obvious in the picture, but I think you can see that the frame is not straight when clicked into the tube.

Attachment:
IMG_3067.JPG

Attachment:
IMG_3068.JPG


This problem doesn't seem to have anything to do with my repairs and the new parts: there are no new plates around cross-frames #1 and #2. And I think I remember noticing this problem when I first got the kayak.
I also don't think this problem is with the top tube being too short. As you can see in the next picture the longeron doesn't fit properly into the bottom right channel in cross-frame #2.

Attachment:
IMG_3066.JPG


Any suggestions on how to handle this problem?

Many thanks!

s


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2016 5:15 pm 
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Both my G2s had longerons which would not stay in the frame notches until I partially tensioned the skin. The fit of the top tube is dependent on the fit of the bow piece into the floor piece. If they aren't fully meshed the top tube will seem to be too short. Good luck, Earl


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2016 6:59 pm 
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This gets more and more weird.
I'd love to see the boat in person. It's hard to tell what's wrong dimensionally from the pics.
Sergey, would you PM me and let me know where you're located?
If we are close, I'd love to come see the boat and help any way I can.

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