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 Post subject: Sailing the T9
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 12:16 am 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:05 pm
Posts: 1412
Location: South Salem, NY
I sailed the T9 last week, and oh is she a tender lass...

I mounted the kayaksailor and it fit beautifully. With the Klepper mounting board from Gerald Grace it fit just like it would on any of the newer Klepper style boats. I reefed my 1.6 SqM sail but left the jib on. It was a little breezier than I would have liked for this first venture. Probably starting around 6 knots and finishing two hours later at 10+.

The T9 sailed very clean and smooth with the KS. Pretty fast too. It seemed to me that we quickly got close to maximum paddling speed if not beyond it a few times. The KS leeboards seem perfect for the boat and the standard rudder configuration steered beautifully. The boat really rolled onto her side smoothly, it almost seemed a little too smoothly. I braced on the lee side with my paddle when necessary - which was a fair amount - and worked on getting more comfortable with the counter lean.

After a half hour or so of sailing I took a break and paddled into a little tributary. It was easy to paddle with the KS mounted and sail furled. When the sail is up the boom end comes right back to just in front of my chest when seated at the very back of the cockpit. So sailing and paddling would need some readjustment with the KS rig placement.

Back out on the lake the wind had dropped a little and was milder (calm before the storm...). I sailed again with the reefed rig and the lean felt better so I did more leaning and less bracing on a couple of these runs. Felt great. So good that I decided to deploy the full sail. The T9 took off beautifully and quickly. I traveled about 100 meters and decided to try a jibe rather than coming about in the milder wind. Just as I completed the jibe a gust of wind hit the sail and we were on our way over. One of those slow motion past the point of return moments that I've become so familiar with in kayak sailing. I was able to keep my head above water on the way in so the shock of the water wasn't so bad. I'm guessing both air and water temp were about the same at around 45˚F.

Now comes the reason that I kept this in the Klepper column. The T9 proved once again very difficult to re-enter. When you capsize sailing you take on a lot of water and the fore and aft bags of the T9 keep the boat adequately suspended at the surface but make the boat want roll. I felt like I was trying to climb back into a hollowed out log. The boat just rolled and rolled. Even after I finally got back in and settled, it took tremendous effort to keep the boat from rolling over again, even with the rescue float still out. I think I had to re-enter two or maybe three times. Very very difficult, and I was on a breezy (now closer to 10Kt) but still pretty calm lake.

I pulled the trigger and purchased the Hobie outrigger system because of this experience. Even though I was able to get back into the boat eventually, the experience threw up enough red flags that safety warranted the outriggers. If not for sailing directly, for after a capsize in the T9. Unfortunately I forgot I had brought my canvas bucket and did most of the bailing with the hand pump. I did get a dozen bucket fulls out before it was back to the pump. The entire re-entry and bailing process took about 50 minutes.

In summary I think the T9 is going to be great fun to sail in warm weather. She was quick and very responsive as you would expect. I didn't notice any bad tendencies other than being a fair bit more tender than the sponson fitted boats. I think I may stick to the Aerius II for any more winter ventures though.

I wouldn't mind hearing some thoughts on the rolling tendency - and preventing it - when the boat becomes swamped. I keep thinking of 'inside frame' sponsons rather than the bow and stern bags... seems like it should work?

D

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Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP


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 Post subject: Re: Sailing the T9
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 12:18 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:40 pm
Posts: 1140
Location: isles of scilly UK
Sounds great, that sail is very good although it is possible to tangle the rigging. I have a canoe paddle for sailing as there is no blade in the air to catch the sail, also the side sponsons seem like a good idea, Klepper were going to do this on their new Backtrak which now seems to have disappeard.


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 Post subject: Re: Sailing the T9
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 10:44 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:05 pm
Posts: 1412
Location: South Salem, NY
I've read through Tom Yost's section on making sponsons a couple of times. I think I should get some material and try and make some for the inside of the T9. I think two for each section, running from either bow or stern to the mid section where the halves meet. They won't help in any outward way until the boat is swamped, but at that point they should add stability right?

I did take the canoe paddle out as well, but found the GP a little better for bracing - actually I don't think I ever got a chance to put the GP away or get the canoe paddle out until after I capsized. I may start with the canoe paddle next time. That wouldn't be a terrible idea. My T9 deck doesn't have any storage facility at all. That makes putting the GP away a little trickier.

No surprise about the Bakyak...

d

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Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP


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 Post subject: Re: Sailing the T9
PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 12:57 am 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:40 pm
Posts: 1140
Location: isles of scilly UK
On the Backyak the sponsons were an accessory that had to be purchased, they fitted on the outside just above the water line which would be difficult to do. Probably another 24 weeks or a little less to paddling up here.


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 Post subject: Re: Sailing the T9
PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 4:11 pm 
knight of the folding kayak realm

Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 6:42 pm
Posts: 464
Instead of attempting to create a sponson the length of the hull weaving around the ribs, could you tie shorter but fatter 'side airbags' in the cockpit alongside you, between rib 3 and 4 and/or ribs 4 and 5? They would counter the tendency to roll, give added bouyancy, displace water, and might make the cockpit a snugger fit (which depending on your size could be a bonus or a problem). Problem would be getting bags of the right size. (How about a bag or mesh net full of those silver plastic wineskins that come in a wine box, inflated?)
For a video showing how a side airbag supports a canoe and allows it to come up almost empty see this url:

http://www.solwaydory.co.uk/videos/13

These are widely used in Open Canoe sailing circles in the UK. Admittedly a kayak is different (particularly for re-entry) but the principle of the side bag supporting the kayak higher in the water when you turn it back over and therefore scooping less water in should be the same. And a largeish airbag/bag of wineskins in the middle of the canoe ought to provide a righting moment at the place with the highest lever, as opposed to spreading the same volume of air along the length of the kayak, where being narrower most of the righting moment of the air has less leverage.

I have in the past seen pictures online of sailors using mesh bags full of inflated wineskins as a poor man's airbag, but I can't locate them right now. Seemed like a good idea to me ... The trick would seem to be securing them tightly to the frame, but in a skin on frame that ought to be relatively easy with straps.

Good luck and let us know how you get on. (Am really interested to hear!)
Ian


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 Post subject: Re: Sailing the T9
PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 2:38 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:05 pm
Posts: 1412
Location: South Salem, NY
Ian, I think this is a fantastic idea, Thanks. I'll definitely let you know how it shapes up. I know that dingy racers have bags that are kinda long and narrow - I'll check those out. A custom shape to fit between ribs 3-4 and 4-5 built ala Tom Yost's tips would probably work perfect.

Did you get a #3 rib for Christmas?

d

_________________
Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP


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 Post subject: Re: Sailing the T9
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:10 am 
knight of the folding kayak realm

Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 6:42 pm
Posts: 464
Not yet. But I've some Christmas money and am contemplating a purchase. I just have to pull together all the relevant pieces. No point having a mast ring if I haven't also sorted out a mast foot, a mast and boom and a sail.

Can you, or can anyone else, tell me what diameter the mast ring on a Klepper is? What diameter aluminium tubing or wooden mast would I need?

Thanks.
Ian


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 Post subject: Re: Sailing the T9
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 8:27 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:40 pm
Posts: 1140
Location: isles of scilly UK
The diameter of the mast is 1 3/8 inches for an Aerius 2.


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 Post subject: Re: Sailing the T9
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 8:42 am 
knight of the folding kayak realm

Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 6:42 pm
Posts: 464
Thanks, John. I imagine the T9 will be the same diameter. In that case the second hand 1.5" diameter mast and batwing sail I've been offered won't fit. I suppose I could buy a new tube for the mast, though. It has some clever brailing lines, which I thought might be useful on a kayak, allowing quick folding away of the sail if conditions become too blustery.

Assuming Klepper originally did this in metric, that'll be 35mm.
All the best,
Ian


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 Post subject: Re: Sailing the T9
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:41 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:05 pm
Posts: 1412
Location: South Salem, NY
Ian, I might email that company Patcool and ask them to measure the diameter of that ring. The new Klepper masts which John and I have are aluminum. I think the older T9 vintage masts may have been wood. The image of the rib #3 always left me with the impression that the hole was smaller than my current aluminum mast ring.

I also wanted to add that reefing should be an integral part of whatever sail you end up with for the T9. I was VERY surprised by the difference the lack of sponsons made when I was out the other day. I'm guessing the camber of the hull didn't help either.

I have an S1 sail which I will try with the T9 when the warm weather is back but I can't imagine it's going to be an easy sail. Fun, absolutely! Tippy? It's going to be crazy. I know my electric pump will be onboard along with my outriggers for re-entry and bail out stabilization (or the new internal sponson solution). I love the big Klepper rigs, but I have to say that the Kayaksailor is as close to an optimal sail package as I can imagine for the T9 from my experience the other day. The Flat Earth rig could be nice as well.

I'm not sure when I'll be out again with the T9 as my lake is now covered with ice. Sailing the T9 on a larger body of water like the LI Sound will include outriggers until warmer weather - but frankly I think I'd take the AII out there in winter before the T9. I just don't feel like getting wet this time of year and more than that I'm having a hard time getting inspired to build either boat in the snow.

d

_________________
Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP


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 Post subject: Re: Sailing the T9
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 12:07 am 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:05 pm
Posts: 1412
Location: South Salem, NY
It was a beautiful day and I just couldn't resist playing with a boat today. I put the T9 frame together to figure out how I'm going to mount my new Hobie outrigger. While doing that I had a brainstorm idea to see how the Hobie pontoons would work as interior sponsons. The fit is amazingly close. I think I might be able to use the Hobie as a template for a cockpit sponson. The Hobie itself fits perfectly but I wouldn't be able to inflate it in place, and once I'm in the boat it's impossible to slide the inflated pontoon into position. I like the way these air bladders act as hip boards as well. I felt very secure between them - but they do take up any storage space that I may have had.

Here are a couple pics of the Hobie pontoons in position inside the cockpit. I just cannot imagine that these will have any effect on handling until the boat has been capsized and filled with water... right?

Image

Image

I also found a mediocre shot of the T9 with Kayaksailor...

Image

_________________
Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP


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 Post subject: Re: Sailing the T9
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 4:56 am 
knight of the folding kayak realm

Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 6:42 pm
Posts: 464
Dennis,
Those are great pictures of the banana-shaped outriggers in the T9. They look like an excellent fit. Would it make sense to have them the other way up so that the bulk of the air is as high in your hull as possible--or rather supports your hull as high as possible when it is upside down or on its side? They shouldn't have any effect on handling when you're the right way up, and looks like they make good hip-board substitutes. (Does anyone roll Kleppers? It's not a trick I've learned, but I assume that is what hip boards are for?)

I was also interested to see your forward keel-board. It looks as though you have the version that will accept a mast foot. It folds in a slightly different place so that there is a floor board directly beneath the rib 3 mast ring. (If one's rib three has one.) My boat has the other keel board, which has the hinges right beside rib 3 and because it folds there, it lacks a floor board to receive the mast foot. It is one of the reasons that I haven't leaped straight in to purchase the patcool rib 3 you pointed me to because I'd still have to rig something up for the floor board. (This picture shows how my keelboard differs from yours: Image ) Of course the kayak sailor gets around that problem by simply strapping to the deck.

Thanks very much for posting all these experiments of yours. It is very helpful and thought-provoking.
All the best,
Ian
PS I love the picture of your house and boat-yard too. It reminds me of visiting my Canadian Great Aunt when I was small. She had a cabin like that with a lake at the bottom of the slope. So wonderfully different from what we have here in lowland Britain. (But we are lucky that the water here stays liquid through the winter, so we do get to paddle all year long.)


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 Post subject: Re: Sailing the T9
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 12:17 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:05 pm
Posts: 1412
Location: South Salem, NY
Ian, I did turn the bags around and the fit was good that way as well. I need to order some PVC cement and play with a custom design. I'm having a little trouble getting excited about making these as they will only be used for capsizing Although the hip stabilization is not a bad objective as well; the amount of space air bladders like this take up is considerable. I usually keep a spare (canoe) paddle inside the cockpit and it usually rides in this same spot along with my water bottle and a small ditty bag. I guess I'm thinking the bladders won't be inflated until after a capsize or my gut tells me it's time...

I guess I need to order some PVC glue and simply play with this idea... if it helps re-entering the boat when filled with water it will be well worth the effort. I must admit that although I was never in danger after capsizing the other day, the cold water (even with the dry suit) and difficulty getting back into the boat was fairly exhausting. I was quite content to do this all 30 meters from the beach. Experiencing this 4 or 5 miles out would have been another story...

I'll make another picture of my deck so you can see how mine is layed out. Although I do have a square hole for the mast, it does not fit the peg of the newer aluminum masts - the hole in the deck is too small.

d

_________________
Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP


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 Post subject: Re: Sailing the T9
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 1:29 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:40 pm
Posts: 1140
Location: isles of scilly UK
Dennis, i am quite sure you fill the bow and the stern with air bags and bags along side of you will help in reducing the amount of water that will be in the boat when a capsize occurs, but i can,t see that bags in board will help much to stop capsizing. Me i might add bags inside to reduce the volume of water taken aboard but out riggers would be used to stop the capsize in the first place and if the wind is strong enough to capsize the boat with out riggers the sail would probably be down i would be heading for safety if not already on the beach. Only another five months or so before paddle time is here.


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 Post subject: Re: Sailing the T9
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 11:40 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:05 pm
Posts: 1412
Location: South Salem, NY
Hi John, I agree with you on all points. I do like sailing without the outriggers when possible though. I found a lot of 'pillow' air bags for dinghy's and they are pricey. I think the Yost method of sponson making is in order here. I'll let you know how that works out when I get around to it.

d

_________________
Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP


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