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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 9:37 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:05 pm
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Location: South Salem, NY
I remember reading this a week or so ago and have been thinking about it since. Why would the 545 paddle easier?

Then I wondered if the ease of paddling might be more about the boat being a quattro vs. standard sponson, is this possibly the reason? Does the quattro have less wetted surface on the water?

d

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 6:37 am 
faltbootemeister
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Joined: Sat May 12, 2007 6:38 am
Posts: 194
Location: NW Ohio
Dennis,

All things being equal, longer boats are faster. The paddler may perceive this additional speed as making it easier to paddle? Intuitively, hull shape can also affect performance (though I'm certainly not qualified as to the how and why).

For example, you will probably agree that the T9 punches above it's weight class. Many owners here and abroad have lamented that (arguably) it is the best all-round single kayak that Klepper ever built, and that Klepper should reissue this kayak. I stated elsewhere on this forum that my T9 "feels" faster than my E65. I was challenged on that statement as the E65 is a bit longer, so, it should be faster than the T9. Fair enough, I have no way to quantify my actual speed (a GPS I'm willing to take on the water or someone to time me between points) so the E65, logically, should be faster.

Of course, hull shape does matter. The E65 is great if you want to go from point a to b, as it rides on rail, but, it is pig to turn. Getting back to your question, the T9 IMHO, once you figure it out, is much easier to paddle because I can easily get it to go straight and fast (enough), it accelerates well, and it turns quickly. To me that makes it easy to paddle, but certainly not easy to paddle out of the box.

So now that I look at what I wrote I doubt that my misc. ramblings helped because of course I don't know anything about the two boats you mentioned, but on the odd chance there was something of value you're here, and nobody else chimed in to date, I'll post it anyway! :roll:

Cheers,

Barry

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 10:07 am 
lord high faltbotmeister

Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:05 am
Posts: 857
Location: atlanta, georgia
I am also interested in understanding this, I paddle both a 545 Quattro and an Aerius 2 and the Quattro seems faster (easier to paddle at speed and faster at equal effort). It is just shy of 1 foot longer than the A 2. The beam is the same as A 2 but the wetted surface looks different because of the sponsons. The Quattro actually seems to sit lower, although that I think that is an illusion caused by the upper sponson. I never understood waterline or wetted surface as it relates to drag. Anyone?

Thanks,
g

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1988 A1 Expedition
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39' jib
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 10:58 am 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:05 pm
Posts: 1409
Location: South Salem, NY
You know Greg, another thing that helps speed considerably is stiffness. If I'm not mistaken the original comment was made when two carbon frame guys (you being one) were talking to each other (yes~no)? Perhaps there's an increase in stiffness with the carbon frame, the boat is lighter, and it's longer... all elements which would increase speed/ease of paddling. We need someone with a regular (wood frame/hypalon hull) 545 to chime in here.

Here's something I noticed sailing this weekend. I always heard that a boat sailing level is more efficient than one heeling. So when I had a good head of steam going on the heel (riding on the chine), 6-7 knots probably, I leveled the boat and there was an obvious loss of speed. I could feel it and see it in the wake. My thought at the time was that when the boat was heeling (the AII) there was less surface in the water to be moved - vs. when I leveled the boat and the full width of the hull needed to be pushed.

?

Nice to see you Barry. On perfect days I love the T9. On windy, choppy, or days I want to go fast... not so much. I do think it's the most efficient boat I've had and clearly the fastest. But I still get squirly as soon as I start applying the need for speed. I need to get that stern deckbar fixed so I can feel better about climbing back in after a capsize. I saw some inflatable sponsons about three feet long a while back that would work well with the boat when swamped - but at $130... I'm still on the fence. My twelve year old has been paddling it and he's doing OK. Imagine how great a paddler he'd be if he stuck with this boat and really learned to make it fly.

d

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:06 pm 
faltbootemeister
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Joined: Sat May 12, 2007 6:38 am
Posts: 194
Location: NW Ohio
Yes, this year I have hardly been out on any of my boats due to family and work commitments. Also, I'm getting back into hiking (vintage stuff of course! :D like my old Kelty Tioga I took to Oz and NZ in 1985) because I'm trying to get back in shape to go to Philmont with my son next summer, so less time for cool old kayaks this year.

Any rate, obviously wetted surface is drag due to frictional losses. Length works in a boat's favor as can be seen described here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hull_speed

Our kayaks are all displacement hulls, though, I guess there may be some out there who have good technique and are strong enough to make their boats plane! LOL An extreme example would be those giant trimarans and catamarans they raced in the last America's cup. I found watching those sailboats flying along on their hydrofoils mesmerizing.

Speaking of kayak hull shape and speed, have you ever checked out Harvey Golden's incredible work? IIRC, he discusses these aspects of kayak design when analyzing the traditional skin-on-frame kayaks that he recreates.

http://traditionalkayaks.com/Kayakrepli ... licas.html

D, I thought I heard/read somewhere that a sailboat that is heeling, I.e. spilling air out of the sail, is less efficient because one is effectively bleeding off energy. Of course it is easy to imagine that letting out the painter in an effort to keep from capsizing is even less efficient, plus you also have more frictional losses of having so much hull in the water. But it seems like you sail alot and probably know all that. Are you familiar with proas?

Barry

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CLC Chesapeake 16'
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Pionier 520-Z / Heise Skin
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 6:34 pm 
lord high faltbotmeister

Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:05 am
Posts: 857
Location: atlanta, georgia
D,

Thanks, yes, I think the stiffness may play a role. As well, my Quattro seats are much firmer and more supportive and that may let me use more core strength to paddle. In the A2 I feel like I am using energy to balance myself on the seat (LH comfort seat on a Klepper frame, which I do not recommend).

Barry, thanks for that link. What an amazing collection of boats. Looks like an entire lifetime's worth of effort.

Best,
g

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"There is nothing--absolutely nothing--half so much worth doing as simply messing around in boats"

1988 A1 Expedition
2010 carbon Klepper Quattro
BSD sail rig, 24' mizzen + 36' main
39' jib
Torqeedo outboard
1938 Sachs-Fichtel seitenbordmotor


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 9:48 pm 
Site Admin

Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 12:34 pm
Posts: 1789
Location: Southeast Michigan
BarryM wrote:
Dennis,

All things being equal, longer boats are faster. The paddler may perceive this additional speed as making it easier to paddle? Intuitively, hull shape can also affect performance (though I'm certainly not qualified as to the how and why).


All things being equal, longer displacement hulled boats have a higher *potential top speed*. That has to do with the speed at which a boat outruns its bow wave and tries to plane. However... if you have two boats of identical displacement, and one is longer, it consequently be narrower, and narrower boats do offer less resistance to being moved through the water.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 10:09 pm 
faltbootemeister
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Joined: Sat May 12, 2007 6:38 am
Posts: 194
Location: NW Ohio
Greg,

Harvey's site is amazing. I stumbled upon his work several years ago while planning on building a SOF Baidarka (I started the gunnels, scarfed from several pieces of cheap pine and drilled the holes for the ribs, they are trash now, but building a Baidarka is still on my bucket list). I was amazed at his passion for recreating all these different native kayaks and canoes not to mention the incredible level of craftsmanship. Glad you enjoyed the link.

Barry

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CLC Chesapeake 16'
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