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 Post subject: Re: Lake Superior
PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 8:16 pm 
knight of the folding kayak realm

Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 6:42 pm
Posts: 418
Hi Chris,
There are more experienced sailors than me who will no doubt chip in. The rigs you mention seem very well regarded. Just thought I'd mention that you also have a local kayak sailmaker in Australia's Mick MacRobb who is sometimes on this site and last I heard was planning to import folding kayaks from Germany/Russia. His website is: http://www.flatearthkayaksails.com/
A Scottish paddler who thinks highly of his sails blogs here: http://seakayakphoto.blogspot.co.uk/201 ... ro-08.html
(I should add that I have no firsthand experience of any of these sails, though I'd like to have a go sometime ...)
All the best,
Ian


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 Post subject: Re: Lake Superior
PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2014 1:30 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:40 pm
Posts: 1025
Location: isles of scilly UK
Chris, nice to see you are back. You are considering Kayaksailor sails and from experience i have found them to be very good. A mount is available from Klepper America which goes into the "hole" where the Klepper sail goes, although i made my own mount as it is required to be able to reach the sail and i sit in the back seat. My mount cover the front seat so it is for rear seat paddlers/sailors. The other sail you mention by BSD is apparently very good and they now have larger outriggers than previously although both are available. The reason i never bought BSD was that when i was interested the orders took years to arrive, although the "new" owner has taken care of that, it is pricy but generally we get what we pay for. Flat Earth sails these are apparently very good and Nortic has made a mount for the folding Navigator (which is made in Russia), so it will now go on a folder. In the latest e-mails i had from Mick Macrobb who makes flat earth sails and imports the Navigator into Australia, he told me he was developing a larger sail which would be suitable for a Klepper and use the Kepper mast, it will also have a mizzen and his suggested price was reasonable, masts not included. at that time it was on test. (i will contact him and see how things are progressing.) The spring creek outriggers, with their universal receiver, it is possible to put two outriggers on each side one higher to reduce drag but there if needed. As you know i have a Triak and those people say have the line that goes to the boom on the main sail in your hand if the wind is strong and let the main go with the wind to stop turning over, if its cleated there probably isn,t time. Of couse we should be in the sailing section, where we should go.


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 Post subject: Re: Lake Superior
PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 5:04 am 
forum fanatic

Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2014 4:48 am
Posts: 75
Location: Waukesha, Wisconsin and Shanghai, China
Hello John Allsop, It's very good to hear from you again! (I see you dropped Facebook). I've been looking hard at website (of Long Haul, Balogh Sail Designs, Kayaksailor, Flat Earth Sails, Doi Nomazi, etc., etc.) for the last week while in China, and I think I have finally settled on a BSD 36 HP Sport rig with BOSS stabilizer. I wrote Mark at Long Haul yesterday asking for a quote and some very specific information on mounting locations (bow or mid-position). Most people are recommending a mid-position mount, and I think this makes the most sense for me, because if my wife is along with me, then I have total control of sail and leeboard as it is right in front of me.....and if I sail alone, this is true also. Apparently, with the centre position, the bow does not plow the water so much either. I can also run my Klepper mast with the jib at the same time if I wish, and my wife can easily control that. I could even mount my Spring Creek outriggers on as well as the BOSS system! Doubt this would be necessary! I'll probably use that on my Souris River canoe. I also see the 36 HP Sport can put 2 reefs in the sail if the weather is heavy. All in all, it looks like a great sail and rig. I met David Valverde, the new owner of BSD at the Canoecopia canoe and kayak show in Madison in 2011, and he seems like a great guy with good customer support, as is Mark at Long Haul. So with David having ownership and apparently great service, it sounds to me like BSD is definitely the best choice for me....even though I have been considering the Kayaksailor, and see it gets good reviews. I just think it is not as big a sail rig as I want to run, and I like the idea of running with an outrigger.....as BSD always does. I let you know when I get it and how it goes. I would really like to meet you face-to-face one of these days, see your many boats and rigs (especially the Triak), go sailing.....but I'm still working (until next May 1), and don't know if I can get up there before next summer. Hope to sail with Frank Porter a little this summer....finally found someone in my own hometown (well my American one, at least.....you know I was born in Manchester like you, and grew up in Oakville Ontario) who owns a Long Haul, has a KS rig, and I understand he is also planning on buying the same BSD as me. Hope to peruse and monitor this site again and catch you off and on. All the best to you and your wife. Cheers! Chris

_________________
1965 Klepper Aerius 2 with 2005 Long Haul hull
1965 Klepper S4 sail rig, with 14 sq ft jib; Sail Rite 32 sq ft genoa; and 41 sq ft main
BSD/BOSS-Wilkes modified outriggers
Spring Creek outriggers
Souris River Canoe
Wegu 19'Sailboat


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 Post subject: Re: Lake Superior
PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 3:31 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:40 pm
Posts: 1025
Location: isles of scilly UK
Chris. I think you have made the best choice and you would have probobly finished at that system after spending money on add on,s which are sail assist in some cases. I have often considered trying to compare different sail rigs but as conditions vary all the time it didn,t seem so good. All the sails i have tried worked well, even the Pacific Action which i was convinced would not sail into wind, will, providing there is a good lee board. Early on i asked Dave at Kayaksailor about making a larger sail but he declined and everone is happy the way it is, just some reservations about the supplied lee boards, i made one longer. One reason i dropped facebook is that this old computer has problems that facebook seem,d to make worse and was very frustrating. The move to the Scillies is still on for this year.


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 Post subject: Re: Lake Superior
PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 9:31 pm 
forum fanatic

Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2014 4:48 am
Posts: 75
Location: Waukesha, Wisconsin and Shanghai, China
John, Glad you agree with my choice on the BSD. I also think the KS sail would be good for a simple, quick install and raising/lowering, but just decided to go BSD for overall. So are you actually moving to Scillies permanently from Manitouwadge? I had the imression you were just going for a vacation. I think I recall you saying your wife was from there. From what you told me before, it sounds like this is a much more inviting place for weather and kayak-sailing.....so I'll have to visit you there instead of Norther Ontario! Good luck on evertyhing!
Chris

_________________
1965 Klepper Aerius 2 with 2005 Long Haul hull
1965 Klepper S4 sail rig, with 14 sq ft jib; Sail Rite 32 sq ft genoa; and 41 sq ft main
BSD/BOSS-Wilkes modified outriggers
Spring Creek outriggers
Souris River Canoe
Wegu 19'Sailboat


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 Post subject: Re: Lake Superior
PostPosted: Sat Feb 22, 2014 1:02 pm 
faltbootemeister

Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2012 8:48 pm
Posts: 248
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Chris I plan to send my rear keel, rear coaming & Velcro spray cover in to Long Haul next week for mods to accept the BSD 36 Sport. I still hope to use the KS 1.6 & Genoa up front for my wife. I hope the combination works well. At least both of us will have fun with sails this year. The KS sail rig is a good one and we enjoyed it all last year. With the size of our boats in low to moderate winds common to the area, the highest speeds we ever got was 7.2 MPH without paddling. That was with a 13-15 MPH wind. That's not bad but it would sure be fun to pass some of the small sailboats and have enough speed going into a tack so you don't have to paddle to get through it. The biggest issue for me was the leeboards were too small and would not keep the MK2 from sliding in tacks. We would loose position in our heading going into the wind. It seemed worse in our port tacks.

Chris we are looking forward to this spring and when you get your rig we can go out and enjoy sailing with you and your wife. I read on a ice thickness site that some of our inland lakes are as much as 29 inches thick and some are 20 inches. When it finally melts and warms up you may be back stateside. Lets hope for some early warming.

Has any one else used the two sails in this schooner setup before? I wonder if we will use the leeboards from the KS rig at all. Last year we also used Hobie Sidkick amas to give my wife a little security. I plan to put them on for our first sail with the BSD & BOSS rig and when Cheri feels that we won't flip, we can remove them too. Less drag I think.

_________________
Frank
Long Haul Stretch Mark 2
BSD 36 HP Sport & BSD 24 HP Sport
Advanced Elements Convertible
2015 Windrider 17 white w/white & black sails


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 Post subject: Re: Lake Superior
PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 11:57 am 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:05 pm
Posts: 1379
Location: South Salem, NY
I just spent over half an hour writing a nice and I think humorous comparison between the BSD and S4 sails. Rather long; yes. Worth it; yes. Lost in the four hour cycling it takes this website to post a response; yes. Pissed; yes.

Here's the no frills super short version:

Chris, I think you have an S4 rig, yes? After you've gotten used to the performance of your 36' BSD, I'd love it if you could mount your S4 on the boat with the BSD outrigger and give us a comparison between the two.

"Aaaaaaar" says the captain, "Aaaaay" says the mate, "Huh?" says I.

Thanks,

d

_________________
Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP


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 Post subject: Re: Lake Superior
PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 12:13 am 
forum fanatic

Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2014 4:48 am
Posts: 75
Location: Waukesha, Wisconsin and Shanghai, China
Hello Frank. Finally got back on this site....Saturday morning here in Shanghai and I'm "chillaxing", as my boys would say. I wrote Long Haul for a quote on the BSD rig, and installation into the center position. No break in price like you got; they say you got an in-stock rig that had not sold..so I guess that's understandable. I asked for installation information because the installation price seemed very high, on top of the rig purchase price (and the need to ship parts back and forth), but they just said it would come with installation instructions....not very helpful for reviewing and desicion-making, which surprised me from prior expereince with Mark at Long Haul. Perhaps, he is just getting too busy and not servicing his customers the same as the early days. I think I'll go directly to BSD and ask for the information. No great rush, as I don't get back until May 10. I might just wait to see your rig before I decide what to order, if that's ok.

Chris

_________________
1965 Klepper Aerius 2 with 2005 Long Haul hull
1965 Klepper S4 sail rig, with 14 sq ft jib; Sail Rite 32 sq ft genoa; and 41 sq ft main
BSD/BOSS-Wilkes modified outriggers
Spring Creek outriggers
Souris River Canoe
Wegu 19'Sailboat


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 Post subject: Re: Lake Superior
PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 12:19 am 
forum fanatic

Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2014 4:48 am
Posts: 75
Location: Waukesha, Wisconsin and Shanghai, China
Frank,
I can lend you my Spring Creek outrigger,too,if you like. Then you can run the BOSS ones, the Hobie amas, and the Spring Creek all at the same time! Cheri and Suzanne could then go out in one rig like this and feel very safe. You might want to try my Klepper dual leeboards with you KS rig....I believe they are much longer than the single leeboard.
Chris

_________________
1965 Klepper Aerius 2 with 2005 Long Haul hull
1965 Klepper S4 sail rig, with 14 sq ft jib; Sail Rite 32 sq ft genoa; and 41 sq ft main
BSD/BOSS-Wilkes modified outriggers
Spring Creek outriggers
Souris River Canoe
Wegu 19'Sailboat


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 Post subject: Re: Lake Superior
PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 12:28 am 
forum fanatic

Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2014 4:48 am
Posts: 75
Location: Waukesha, Wisconsin and Shanghai, China
Hello dLee,
I would love to have seen your comparison of the BSD /BOSS rig with the Klepper S4 rig, since that is what I want to get a feel for. I have never used a BSD rig, but expect it is far superior. I have not ordered a BSD/BOSS rig yet since I'm overseas, don't get back until mid-May, and have not got some of the information I need to make a decision on the installation. I expect it is quite simple to do for a handy guy who likes to work on boats. I'm struggling with justifying paying almost $2K for this rig (which probably only weighs about 10 lbs., so at about $200/lb seems very costly) So, I would love to hear your comments.....if the BSD/BOSS is far superior, it will help me decide to go forward. Arrrgh!
Chris

_________________
1965 Klepper Aerius 2 with 2005 Long Haul hull
1965 Klepper S4 sail rig, with 14 sq ft jib; Sail Rite 32 sq ft genoa; and 41 sq ft main
BSD/BOSS-Wilkes modified outriggers
Spring Creek outriggers
Souris River Canoe
Wegu 19'Sailboat


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 Post subject: Re: Lake Superior
PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 3:36 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:40 pm
Posts: 1025
Location: isles of scilly UK
Chris, i havn,t seen a BSD sail outfit but i am sure you will be able to make all the fittings that are needed to mount the sail in the location you want , I have fitted numerous types of sails and masts even a Klepper mast to a Folbot Yukon so i can use the Klepper S1 sail on it. In the sailing section i have put the details of fitting the bottom of a Russian mast ,"foot" into a Klepper A2. As regards cost the Kayaksailor you have been looking at works well and throughout the world there are many enthusiasts of the system. I am in contact with Mick Macrobb of Flat Earth in Australia about his larger sail that should be suitable for a Klepper. I will have to fit this sail if i should add it to my collection and i don,t visualize any problems. It,s only a sail and a boat.


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 Post subject: Re: Lake Superior
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 3:52 pm 
faltbootemeister

Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2012 8:48 pm
Posts: 248
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Chris the installation price is because it does take Mark several hours to do it correctly. I'm having it done by a pro because I want it done right. John A is right that it is hard to want to drill the first hole. Mark has a 36 Sport in yellow w/red trim & corners. Ask him for a price on that. I picked the blue sail to better match my blue deck & KS.

_________________
Frank
Long Haul Stretch Mark 2
BSD 36 HP Sport & BSD 24 HP Sport
Advanced Elements Convertible
2015 Windrider 17 white w/white & black sails


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 Post subject: Re: Lake Superior
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 6:04 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:05 pm
Posts: 1379
Location: South Salem, NY
Chris, you must have misunderstood me. I don't have experience with the BSD. I only have experience with the Klepper like you. I was hoping that when you pick up the BSD (if you do) you could give the rest of us slackers a nice review - although I doubt I'll ever be able to afford it. I also don't like the idea of HAVING to sail with the outriggers... but that could change if the performance were far superior.

David Valverde has the BSD mounted on a MK1 and a Ute. I'm sure he has instructions for installation as well.

What kind of installation cost is Mark proposing? I think Mark's business is a bit of a sine wave and you've got to catch him at the right time. We should all be really happy that we have him here in our very own Colorado especially with the unknown Klepper future overseas.

I would also consider paying close attention to John's new Flat Earth sail. I think this could be very interesting and offer the option of sailing with and without outriggers. In the long run it might just be worth buying the BAD system from Valverde and sailing with the Klepper S2/S4. To me there is nothing that looks as great as that big Klepper rig under sail. Poetry in motion if you ask me. Love the way that jib and main work together.

d

_________________
Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP


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 Post subject: Re: Lake Superior
PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 4:07 am 
forum fanatic

Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2014 4:48 am
Posts: 75
Location: Waukesha, Wisconsin and Shanghai, China
John, DLee, Frank,
Agreed, we all should be very appreciative of having Mark at Long Haul there for all of us. The new skin/hull he sold me about 8 years ago, along with a LH comfort seat, and miscellaneous other equipment, has been great. I just have a problem spending $350 plus shipping costs back and forth, when I am very confident of my abilities to install the sail system and BOSS on my boat....and in fact love working on boats. I did not get the info requested from Mark because he's probably so busy with his business, and delegated my request to one of his assistants, who didn't really answer my questions. No worries. When I get time, I'll ask David at BSD for the information and instructions, and probably buy the rig from him since he is the OEM anyway. The price of the rig is the same as LH offers, and I'd like to get the colour combo I want. Off to Australia on Tuesday for 4 weeks....hope to do some kayaking and sailing while there in the Brisbane area, Surfer's Paradise, Gold Coast, Goff's Harbour, etc. Cheers! Chris

_________________
1965 Klepper Aerius 2 with 2005 Long Haul hull
1965 Klepper S4 sail rig, with 14 sq ft jib; Sail Rite 32 sq ft genoa; and 41 sq ft main
BSD/BOSS-Wilkes modified outriggers
Spring Creek outriggers
Souris River Canoe
Wegu 19'Sailboat


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 Post subject: Re: Lake Superior
PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 9:50 am 
faltbootemeister
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2011 11:41 am
Posts: 221
jcwlx wrote:
John, DLee, Frank,
Agreed, we all should be very appreciative of having Mark at Long Haul there for all of us. The new skin/hull he sold me about 8 years ago, along with a LH comfort seat, and miscellaneous other equipment, has been great. I just have a problem spending $350 plus shipping costs back and forth, when I am very confident of my abilities to install the sail system and BOSS on my boat....and in fact love working on boats. I did not get the info requested from Mark because he's probably so busy with his business, and delegated my request to one of his assistants, who didn't really answer my questions. No worries. When I get time, I'll ask David at BSD for the information and instructions, and probably buy the rig from him since he is the OEM anyway. The price of the rig is the same as LH offers, and I'd like to get the colour combo I want. Off to Australia on Tuesday for 4 weeks....hope to do some kayaking and sailing while there in the Brisbane area, Surfer's Paradise, Gold Coast, Goff's Harbour, etc. Cheers! Chris


I believe BSD has some instructions on their website. For some reason I remember a .pdf document that I was able to download three years ago. I'll look for it and if I find it I'll let you know. Or just write to David at BSD.

_________________
Seasick & Grumpy enjoying a Long Haul Mark II Commando with BSD 36' HP Sport sail

http://vimeo.com/channels/travelotherapy


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