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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 9:41 am 
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Location: Southeast Michigan
The LH joints don't move appreciably once the boat is fully assembled. Since the joints are all under compression in an assembled boat, I think most of the flex comes mainly from the geometry, and secondarily from materials used in the frame itself.

The Cooper is the most flexible boat I've paddled- it's long and narrow, and the tubing is fairly flexible. The K1, much less so- but it uses stiffer tubing, and a lot more cross bracing.

The double Long Hauls and Kleppers are more flexible than the singles, and as the construction is identical in both cases, I think it comes down to the length-to-width ratio. The new tiny Long Haul Ute is a very stiff boat. The Nautiraid Raid I is fairly stiff, even though it uses very flexible longerons without much bracing- it's short and wide.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 12:25 pm 
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Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2005 9:02 pm
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Location: Astoria, OR
I'll add: the Folbot Kodiak is the stiffest folder I have paddled, by far. Perhaps, as Mike suggests, due to its shorter length.

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Dave Kruger
Astoria, OR
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Folbot Kodiak, Cooper, and Edisto; three hardshells; Mothership: Surf Scoter the Bartender; dinghy Little Blue Duck.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 2:04 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle
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Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 4:47 pm
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Location: Arlington, VA (i.e. Wash DC)
As I mentioned earlier in this thread, the Puffins are also surprisingly stiff. I doubt they're as stiff as the FCs or the Ute, but this is more support for the short-is-stiff argument. In fact, in the Puffins 10 and 12, Alv eliminated the chines a couple of years ago. Between the sponsons, the gunwhales, and the keel, he found the chines were pretty-much dead weight. This didn't apply to the 14-foot boats.

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Chris T.
~'91 Klepper A2 w/ BSD schooner rig.
'64 Klepper Passat/Tradewind and T12 restoration projects.
Non-folding: Early '90s Old Town Canoe.
Previously owned '04 Pakboat Puffin II and '05 Swift (prototype), as well as an '84 Hobie 16.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 5:56 am 
My .02... I just purchased a used MK I package from Long Haul, and honestly, this is what a Klepper ought to be. :shock: Every complaint I had about my Klepper has been fixed with this boat, I only wish I'd have known about Long Haul before I bought my A2. Not that I'm disappointed with the Klepper, but the MK I is absolutely an improvement... :D


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 5:42 pm 
BrianAZ wrote:
My .02... I just purchased a used MK I package from Long Haul, and honestly, this is what a Klepper ought to be. Every complaint I had about my Klepper has been fixed with this boat

Watch that backrest, where it's touching the metal tip of the stern deckbar. Straps that are adjusting the backrest tilt, don't stop it from hitting on the metal tip when you are paddling. This is very different from the backrests of Klepper, fixed to the cockpit coaming. I had to cut an oval slot in the plywood backrest, to prevent the metal tip from scratching the backrest and bending, (and it also cut the sprayskirt nylon funnel through, when it got "sandwiched" between these 2 hard surfaces). The oval slot wasn't enough, so I also had to attach wooden "Stoppers" (or spacers) or trapezoidal shape to the top of the aft cockpit rib. Altogether these additions worked, though the stoppers were getting in the way TAD when loading large drybags through the rib.

The strap with the small buckle holding the inflatable pad to the plywood seat is inconvenient in use. I've replaced it with wide Velcro - the "hooks" on the strap and the bottom of the pillow, and "loops" - on the plywood, wrapped around the front edge of the plywood and sewn together though that tiny slot. The end of the strap remains loose and bent up, so you can pull it up to separate the pad from the plywood.

Hopefully the explanations are clear - no pictures, as the boat has been sold.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 12:34 am 
[/quote]Watch that backrest, where it's touching the metal tip of the stern deckbar. [/quote]

Alex, no kayak is perfect. Anyone that purchases a new kayak in my paddling group modifies it right away, either to alter design flaws, or to improve it. I paddled Longhaul MarkI a few times and was very impressed with the overall quality of it.

In case of Longhaul's backrest problem, the quick and easy fix is to drill a 2" hole in the plywood opposite the protruding metal bracket, and to add small spacer on the rib (exactly as you have done it, sans gene the oval). I think that the overlook in the design proccess is small enough to be forgiven, and easily rectifiable by the owner. No need for major recall.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 1:48 am 
Greg, the quality of materials and workmanship on LH is good. It was good on Kleppers as well, AFAIK. About the only material that is better is stainless steel on LH fittings. All other major differencies between LH and Klepper are in the improved design. No reasons to recall, - it all works, though the seat could've been designed better - with easier front buckle and with oval in the backrest. There were other things that I had to improve, but they were relatively minor.

After a while I've found that the cockpit coaming was rubbing against tha aluminum mast collar from inside - there were deep marks on the wood. The inner surface of the moulding was a bit rough. Had to file the collar on the inside, as far as I could reach, but don't think that this has eliminated the problem completey. This part is identical to Klepper. I'm writing about this now only because this is another detail to keep an eye on.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 6:06 am 
Actually I had read an earlier post (by alm) about the backrest rubbing against that metal fitting. My low-tech fix has been to place a folded towel between backrest and boomerang, has worked great so far, cutting that oval into the wood is a great idea but probably more than I'll want to do personally. Regarding the strap that holds the seat pad in place, I haven't used my MK1 enough to have formed an opinion yet, but I see exactly what you're saying, and the velcro is a good idea. However, considering the VAST improvement in the comfort of LH seats over Klepper's "booster" seat :lol: , a little extra effort in installing it is more than a fair trade! :)

I honestly haven't found the slide-n-snap fittings on my Klepper to be as efficient as they should be, they just always seem to bind up or require a helluva lot of twisting and pulling to get things to line up. OTOH, the stainless cotter-pin connectors on my MK 1 go together so easily it's almost too good to be true. Likewise the end pieces, the dovetail design on LH is wonderful, while I always found attaching them on the Klepper to be, at best, annoying. IMHO :D

Regardless, my Klepper isn't going anywhere, as I've recently introduced my GF's 12 year old son to kayaking and need a double. But I still feel that LH has made significant improvements...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 10:29 am 
Site Admin

Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 12:34 pm
Posts: 1819
Location: Southeast Michigan
Ditto on the connectors. I always need to keep a Leatherman tool handy when I take out my AE-II in case a Klepper fitting gets squashed, or pops a spring. The LH fittings are just no hassle.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 1:58 pm 
Quote:
backrest rubbing against that metal fitting. My low-tech fix has been to place a folded towel between backrest and boomerang, has worked great so far, cutting that oval into the wood is a great idea but probably more than I'll want to do personally.

If done with an average accuracy, i.e. stretched horizontally and with rounded edges, the oval doesn't affect the resale value. Located just below the fabric "flap" at the top, it looks like something that was meant to be there. Like those cuts in wooden chair backrests or in the seat of wooden stool, - to carry them around. Works for the same purpose, and very handy. As I like taking the seat off on any lunch stop or overnight stop (makes for an excellent camp chair), I do carry it around. (Did, actually - I'm forgetting that no longer have it). And this also makes another improvement - Velcro - necessary, as it makes the attachment of the seat much faster.

I don't keep any power tools in my apartment, except for a drill. Simply drill 2 large diameter holes (1/2" or so) spaced about 4" apart just below the fabric flap of backrest. Then use that saw with a small blade and pistol handle to cut the slot from one hole to another(I think it's called kewhole saw). It's not an oval, actually - just a horizontal slot 4" * 1" with rounded ends. Round the edges and smooth them with a sandpaper, put some Epoxy on the edge of the cut, and/or cover with a varnish.

The idea of the slot was suggested by Greg the Klondiker, when he tried my boat - thanks. I wonder why I was the first one who noticed this problem in MK1 - it is so apparent. The idea of Velcro under the seat pad was inspired by Feathercraft seat.

Btw, keep an eye on these dovetail end pieces. In the bow of my MK1 the gunwales boards were rubbing against that bow piece, leaving deep marks, - I had to round the corners of gunwales and sandpaper and varnish those marks.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 3:42 pm 
mje wrote:
Ditto on the connectors. I always need to keep a Leatherman tool handy when I take out my AE-II in case a Klepper fitting gets squashed, or pops a spring. The LH fittings are just no hassle.


:lol: Yep, same here, except I keep a butter knife in my rib bag, to straighten the metal fittings on the keel boards which, no matter what I do or how I pack things, always seem to get bent just enough to be a problem. I've been lucky, haven't lost a spring or pin from the rib fittings yet but figure I will eventually... :roll:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 6:52 am 
knight of the folding kayak realm

Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2005 1:06 pm
Posts: 359
Location: Spruce Head, Maine
Quote:
Watch that backrest, where it's touching the metal tip of the stern deckbar. Straps that are adjusting the backrest tilt, don't stop it from hitting on the metal tip when you are paddling. This is very different from the backrests of Klepper, fixed to the cockpit coaming. I had to cut an oval slot in the plywood backrest, to prevent the metal tip from scratching the backrest and bending, (and it also cut the sprayskirt nylon funnel through, when it got "sandwiched" between these 2 hard surfaces). The oval slot wasn't enough, so I also had to attach wooden "Stoppers" (or spacers) or trapezoidal shape to the top of the aft cockpit rib.


I attached two wooden struts, supplied by LH, to the rib. I was more than satisfied with this solution. I think this is what you did as well, described above.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 10:17 am 
Well, I took "the plunge" :o I used a 2" hole cutting bit and removed a section of the backrest on the seat to allow it to fit over the stern deckbar fitting 8)

I'm much happier with this mod, though I still place a towel between the boomerang and seatback to cushion the wood parts; it also allows the seat to recline a little bit more, which I like.

I drilled, sanded and varnished the hole simply enough. I will admit that this has been the only :? flaw with my MK 1, but is obvious enough that I'm surprised Mark hasn't addressed it... :?:

Regardless, I love my MK 1 and would certainly recommend Long Haul's kayaks to anyone :D


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 2:59 pm 
BrianAZ wrote:
I'm much happier with this mod [hole], though I still place a towel between the boomerang and seatback to cushion the wood parts; it also allows the seat to recline a little bit more, which I like.

There shouldn't be much need in towel now. Plywood backrest is pressed against the top section of the rib (with stern deckbar in the hole) - this is okay. If you're concerned about the wood pieces rubbing against each other, - wrap some sleeping mat foam around the top part of the rib, or glue it to the front surface. The hole might not provide enough clearance from the backrest foam pad in fabric envelope behind that plywood, so some wooden stoppers or thick foam on the rib would still be needed. You'll see later, if the deckbar is digging the hole in the fabric of the backrest pad.

PS: My hole was not 2" round, but approximately 4" long (the width of palm), and 1" high, - to put the palm through (which was a welcomed but totally unexpected option), and to ensure that the deckbar isn't missing the hole when the seat moves slightly to the left or right.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 5:32 pm 
I was just guessing to use a 2" hole saw for the seat solution. Actually, Alex found a more elegant approach, perhaps however a bit more involved.

Either way, it is a small correction to an otherwise splendid kayak. I wish I had one as a backup to my Feathercraft Klondike, which can be sometimes a handfull to handle in single mode, particularly in strong winds.


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