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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 11:59 pm 
It would've helped (as usual) if the requirements to the boat where more specific. For use with urban public transportation it has to be a one-bag boat, preferably under 50 lbs (because there will be other weight to carry as well). For long-distance solo air/train/bus travel - same priorities, though not as crucial (there are often porters or luggage carts in such places, but don't always count on it). For flats/apartments dwellers, with or without car involved, it should better be fast-drying (except, may be, for very dry or southern regions), which means synthetic deck and preferably hatches or zippers.

Wayland Harpoon is almost the same boat as much more expensive Klepper AE1 (there are some differencies, but overall it is a very close replica). AE1 is a 3-bag boat (can be loaded in 2 bags if needed), pretty bulky, with a canvas deck (don't know about Harpoon's deck), and weighs 60 or 65 lbs without bags and rudder (add another 10 lbs for these items). In Harpoon they tried to reduce the weight, still it's probably over 60 lbs with all the acessories. I had some experience with Longhaul MK1 - a longer and heavier version of AE1. Assembling was easy and predictable, but with so many separate parts and heavy frame and skin it took about the same amount of energy as, say, FC Kahuna, and the same time. Unless going for breaking a record, i.e. working at my normal speed, it usually took me from 25 to 35 minutes with MK1 (depending on mood, weather, etc). Dissembling it always took longer than Kahuna. Comparing MK1 and Harpoon is, of course, not really fair, as Mk1 is longer, heavier and with a different kind of rib locks, so assembling isn't really the same. My point merely was that these wooden frame boats are a different breed from models like Fujita, Cooper, or Kahuna.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 7:51 pm 
Thank you everyone for such constructive and detailed information, and to those UK friends who have offered testing their own folding kayaks.

All of you are so experienced and helpful.

OK, I have done my reading around, and how useful folding kayaks is to provide all the inside and outs.

I have decided to go for a Walyland Harpoon I expedition. Its going to include a good few additional stuff coming to just under £900 British pounds. Compared to the final cost of a new Swift or Arrow 14 it is not that much more.
Yes , I know the 26Kg is not ideal but, I will later consider a good second hand inflatable or something light for my trips overseas.

The Polish people selling these seem to take pride in their product and services and do want to expand. Their name and reputation is important to them, also being part of the European Union I only pay delivery charges of around US $60-$70

Went on a 5 mile round trip at night on the river Thames with the Kayaking club (12 of us all with head torches) and in very cold weather. Reaching London’s Tower Bridge on my own paddle power with all the London lights was some experience.

http://www.freefoto.com/preview.jsp?id= ... 2C+England

Thanks to all who left comment and ideas.

Abdi


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 Post subject: Wayland
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 9:12 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle
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Location: Anchorage Alaska
I got a replacement Aerius 2 skin from Wayland. I am happy with it. A bit of a pain in the ass with the delivery.. Lufthansa sucks!, but worked out a deal with Wayland.

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 Post subject: Wayland Hulls
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 7:52 am 
Yes, have noticed their price list showing Hull prices (Skin as you call it) for non Wayland Kayaks. I am pretty optimistic that their products are going to be fine. Read 30 feed backs on eBay, everyone seems to think their boats are good quality. The Germans love them, it must be a nice Saturday drive from East Germany to their factory and back I should think.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 4:41 pm 
Of course, Germans love them. It'a almost the same as Klepper AE1, and 2 times cheaper. Rudder arrangements are not the same, I've heard, but from the photos I don't see what they've made differently, and this isn't important for inland waterways. Germans love Kleppers too, though I personally wouldn't buy AE1 - a little bit heavy and slow for me. With the seat and sprayskirt the Harpoon probably weighs more than specified 26 kg. Definitely more with wet deck or some bilge water inside. There is a border-line somewhere at 45 bls (20 kg) - lighter boats I can carry on my shoulder, while heavier boats need a cart, and when using a cart isn't practical, there is no other alternatives. Here in BC there are many places where I can't use a cart at all. Well, I could carry 60 or 70 lbs boat, but this is too much for me, and on rugged terrains or in wind this is just dangerous. Had to kiss a good-bye recently to my Longhaul MK1; wooden frames are beautiful, and I liked the cargo volume of MK1, but there were reasons to let it go. Weight was one reason (it's 10 or 12 lbs heavier than AE1), bulk - another, and inconvenient access to cargo on multiday trips - third. Those open cockpits seem large, but in reality, unless you take the sprayskirt off - and these sprayskirts are not same easy to put on and take off, as those on hardshell-style cockpits - with the sprayskirt on they provide poorer access to cargo, especially in the bow, than, say, cockpit of FC K1 or Big Kahuna. Klepper-style rudder pedals aggravate this too.

For short trips on lakes and rivers many of these factors don't matter - shores are smooth and accessible, rudder can be left home, and with 27-28" wide hull it is easy to load and unload few items for a 2-day trip.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 7:57 pm 
Agree, weight is an issue. I am thinking of coming up with a not too silly looking (I hope) trolley or what ever you call it to move the bag or bags to the water side. An L shaped trolley bag that can be packed away in the kayak, as you don’t want to come back and see its taken a walk. In the UK most places I would know about will have a road or pathway access. The problem will be the distance of getting it from where you park to the river/lake side. I have thought about the weight issue a lot and it does bug me. But I guess you can’t have a Kayak that is both touring and sea going, is cheap, looks good, comes with a whole lot of accessories, offers a fairly quick assembly disassembly, is well made and has a bit of a character these wood frame kayaks tend to have.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 1:45 am 
Quote:
I am thinking of coming up with a not too silly looking (I hope) trolley or what ever you call it to move the bag or bags to the water side.

For a short trip without overnight stay it will be 2 bags minimum. 1 long bag with frame and paddles and 1 wide bag with skin, ribs, plus gear, food, and accessories that didn't fit in the first bag. The total weight of 2 these bags will be over 70 lbs.

Quote:
An L shaped trolley bag that can be packed away in the kayak, as you don’t want to come back and see its taken a walk.

Klepper Foldy is the only one commercially available "convertible" trolley, that works both as a luggage cart and kayak cart. L-shaped trolley (with L turned downwards) is available from some New Zealand company, you can find it on Ebay as "Humble Trolley". It doesn't work well with 2 bags (same as other commercial trolleys). OTH, if the L is turned upwards (keeping the bags from sliding off the cart), then it won't work as a kayak cart.

I don't like assembling the kayak at the beach or dock, unless there is no other choice. It's usually more comfortable to do at some grassy (and, if possible, shady) area next to the parking, and then roll it with all the cargo to the water, if the terrain allows. Many regular kayaking troleys will suit this purpose.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 5:31 am 
Have a look at these three examples. I was thinking of big wheels like these or bigger, in case the terrain wasn’t as perfect as an asphalt walkway. A foldable Item that I can either lay flat on the Kayak or preferably put away inside it (don’t want to look like a cargo barge either). If there is more than one of you, one person can take these back to the cars, providing they’re e not parked miles away that is. I’d want the top of the handle to curve out so that it won’t trap your fingers and the luggage. Want to find something that's light, strong, has big wheels and ideally comes apart taking up very little space. Have already seen something like it for carrying building materials. By the way the Harpoon bag dimensions are 130 x 55 x 25 cm.

I guess as these are eBay links, after a while they won't be available for viewing.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/50kg-LIGHTWEIGHT- ... NIUM-SACK-
TRUCK-TROLLEY_W0QQitemZ220092379042QQcategoryZ64813QQrdZ1
QQcmdZViewItem#ebayphotohosting

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/PROFESSIONAL-FOLD ... NIUM-HAND-
TROLLEY_W0QQitemZ140094327934QQcategoryZ64813QQrdZ1QQcmd
ZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/FOLDING-TROLLEY-A ... QitemZ3300
99231129QQcategoryZ64813QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem[/img]


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 2:39 pm 
Quote:
Have a look at these three examples. I was thinking of big wheels like these or bigger, in case the terrain wasn’t as perfect as an asphalt walkway. A foldable Item that I can either lay flat on the Kayak or preferably put away inside it

it is way too bulky when folded. I think, only if you are not loaded for more than 1-2 nights, you'll be able to put it inside. And even then, there is a question whether it will fit through the ribs. These wheels are good only for hard surfaces like concrete - it might not work well on beach pebbles, and it definitely will not work on soft sand. And you are probably forgetting that this is a bag cart only - it's not suitable for rolling an assembled kayak in and out of water. Just in case if Ebay links disappear, here is similar cart from West Marine (the one with smiling lady, currently discounted down to $59):
Image

Quote:
Want to find something that's light, strong, has big wheels and ideally comes apart taking up very little space.

I had eventually to build one, it works, big wheels for most of terrains, has its pros and cons. The smallest you can break it apart, the more parts you have to assemble and dissemble every time. Paddleboy Nemo is a good alternative - works as a boat cart, and, TAD, as a bag cart (shown in my gallery).

Quote:
By the way the Harpoon bag dimensions are 130 x 55 x 25 cm.

Ah, then it's a one-bag version, which is good and bad. Bad, because you have to lift one heavy bag, rather than 2 lighter ones. Sometimes you will have to lift and carry it - no time to use a cart, or some tricky stairs, or getting in and out of the bus, etc, and the bag should not be too heavy - damaging your spine will be very costly.

PS: In fact, I don't know whether one-bag pack in Wayland is the version, or their only available option. But this is how Klepper and Longhaul do it, - square skin bag and narrow frame bag. Longhaul also has the 3rd bag - small one, for ribs and rudder. Weight wasn't the only reason to do so. Ribs and rudder parts have sharp edges and don't belong in the skin bag. Ribs also don't belong in narrow frame bag, being too wide, especially three middle ribs. When traveling by air or any other public transportation, this separate rib bag is a pain, and on such occasions I carried ribs in 40-liter backpack on my shoulders, together with some other gear (so the backpack was needed anyway), unil have sold my Longhaul.

Btw, - I've just browsed through the Harpoon review by Dmitri - he had to split the parts between two bags - one from the factory and one additional. Makes sense to me. Bags 125-130 cm long are difficult to find, btw. Most duffels and hockey bags are 100 cm or shorter.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 1:51 pm 
lord high faltbotmeister
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Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2005 4:55 am
Posts: 575
Location: Dumfries, SW Scotland
I've got the Klepper "Foldy" trolley, but I don't find it great considering the price. The joints are locked by toothed disks that bite together when you turn a knob, but they don't grip as solidly as they should, and can slip if you stress the handle, e.g. trying to manoeuvre the trolley over a bump. It makes the whole thing feel "spongy". Also, it's too wide to use on buses or trains.

On the plus side, the width does give it much more stability than a conventional luggage trolley. It folds up to a fairly compact shape, and the wheels can be removed easily. I can stow mine in the back of my Puffin Swift, which isn't all that roomy.

Mary

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 3:03 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle
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Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 4:47 pm
Posts: 1716
Location: Arlington, VA (i.e. Wash DC)
A note and a reminder to all:
I just chopped up Abdi's long URLs and added a carriage return after the sentence before ALM's enclosed webpage. This was to get the width of the text in this thread back to showing in a normal-width page.
Please be more careful about the width of the images or unbroken words you paste in-- you can make it very difficult for others to read the whole thread.
Thanks,
Chris

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Chris T.
~'91 Klepper A2 w/ BSD schooner rig.
'64 Klepper Passat/Tradewind and T12 restoration projects.
Non-folding: Early '90s Old Town Canoe.
Previously owned '04 Pakboat Puffin II and '05 Swift (prototype), as well as an '84 Hobie 16.


Last edited by chrstjrn on Sun Mar 18, 2007 3:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 3:05 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle
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Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 4:47 pm
Posts: 1716
Location: Arlington, VA (i.e. Wash DC)
Mary-
Thanks for the info on the Klepper cart. I hadn't heard about the width or the questionable detentes.

_________________
Chris T.
~'91 Klepper A2 w/ BSD schooner rig.
'64 Klepper Passat/Tradewind and T12 restoration projects.
Non-folding: Early '90s Old Town Canoe.
Previously owned '04 Pakboat Puffin II and '05 Swift (prototype), as well as an '84 Hobie 16.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 3:27 pm 
Chris, sorry about the length of my URLs, was not aware of the side effect.
Looks like I for one can no longer open the links. Alm’s done a good job on the foldable cart front so perhaps it’s best if you remove mine altogether.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 3:49 pm 
On my commercial Paddleboy cart the outermost width is 66 cm (26"), with hull-bearing or bag-bearing saddle 35 cm (14") above the ground (keel sits lower, 13" from the ground), and it is still not enough stabile on less-than-perfect terrains like old bumpy asphalt, dock gangways etc, when rolling the boat with superstructures like attached deck bag and some gear piled carelessly on the seat. I didn't try rolling it through bus or train doors, but it is narrow enough for other pedestrian gates and turnstiles.

My home-made convertible cart has same height, but the outermost width only 50 cm (20"). It is stabile enough for empty boat on slightly bumpy urban terrrains, but needs a bit of care with empty boat on wilderness terrains or with 2 bags on less-than-perfect urban terrains. It wouldn't be practical to make width less than 50 cm, and I'm thiking of making it wider than 50 cm.

Klepper Foldy is the only commercial convertible cart, but it looks too bulky for using in single kayaks on multiday trips. For open-deck boats like Puffin and on day-paddling with minimum gear it could work. What is the outermost width of this Foldy? (the height is probably close to 13" or 14").

PS: last 5 or 6 messages are about carts, and don't belong to What Boat For Me, but I have no idea where they belong. May be to Camping Gear?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 6:27 am 
lord high faltbotmeister
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Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2005 4:55 am
Posts: 575
Location: Dumfries, SW Scotland
Alm wrote:
PS: last 5 or 6 messages are about carts, and don't belong to What Boat For Me, but I have no idea where they belong. May be to Camping Gear?


How about starting a "carts" thread under "General Folding Kayak Questions"? Portability is relevant to all folders.

When I get the chance, I'll set up my "Foldy" and supply measurements.

Mary

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